Cineporter vs Firestore

[nsoltz]

I moderate another board and usually lurk around here more than post, but wanted to raise a question regarding upcoming long-form capture options. I am particularly impressed with the 24pN (which we now have to know means Native, not 24p Normal as in DVX-speak) capture which writes to P2 only the needed frames. The HVX, however, will only stream firewire in a 60 stream, as I understand it. The only real consequence of that, of course, to hard drive would be removing the pulldown to edit in a 23.98 timeline.

However, would that imply that while the Firestore will be able to capture 720/24p over 60, the Cineporter should be able to capture 720/24pNative since it is effectively an extension of the P2 slot rather than firewire out? I know there are some test units out there, so if anyone is able under their NDA terms to answer, it might prove an important consideration in which device to buy.

Ned Soltz

 

[Bono]

Great question! I thought I was told at the DV Expo that the Firestore was being optimized for the HVX200 and that when it finally comes out, it WILL record a 24pN stream...

 

[Brian Petersen]

Great question! I thought I was told at the DV Expo that the Firestore was being optimized for the HVX200 and that when it finally comes out, it WILL record a 24pN stream...

It would be impossible for the Firestore to record through the Firewire in the 24pN mode. It's my understanding that NOTHING is even going through the firewire port in that mode. By it's nature, 24pN can stream through the firewire. What "might" be possible is that that you use the Firestore in the regular 24p mode (over 60) and the Firestore itself applies a pulldown leaving you with 24p (not over 60). Which would not only save you a step in post, but would take up less room on the firestore.

I have no idea if that is what they are doing, but from my understanding, if the Firestore is connecting to the camera via firewire, then it cannot even be used during the 24pN mode.

 

[Barry_Green]

That is correct, 24pN doesn't go out the firewire.

However, what Brian supposes is perhaps possible. I believe Evin said that when he captured 720/24P "over 60" from the firewire, his Mac actually wrote out just the 24P frames just as if it was 24PN.

I don't know whether FireStore does that or not. I sure hope so, but I don't think so. However, FireStore does say that every product they've offered is flash-firmware upgradeable, so even if it doesn't offer that capability at first, maybe someday an update will come along that will allow it...

 

[Bono]

Does that mean that with the Firestore, there is no advantage to shooting 720P instead of 1080P? With P2 cards, I have imagined I would shoot 720P simply to increase the recording times on the cards...

(1080P / 24P exists, right?)

 

[Barry_Green]

Well, with the FireStore, assuming that it stores the same 100-megabit data stream, then no there wouldn't be any space advantage to shooting 720p. But you'd still have variable frame rate capability in 720p.

This is speculation though -- we have to see what features are implemented in the actual shipping product!

 

[David_M_Payne]

That is correct, 24pN doesn't go out the firewire.

However, what Brian supposes is perhaps possible. I believe Evin said that when he captured 720/24P "over 60" from the firewire, his Mac actually wrote out just the 24P frames just as if it was 24PN.

I don't know whether FireStore does that or not. I sure hope so, but I don't think so. However, FireStore does say that every product they've offered is flash-firmware upgradeable, so even if it doesn't offer that capability at first, maybe someday an update will come along that will allow it...

Barry, I looked for the answer to this question but couldn't find it here on the forum. I'm a bit confused by this statement about 24pN not going out on the firewire. Why do you think that is? Is there a thread you can point me to, or perhaps you can post what exactly will and will not go out on the firewire and USB interfaces? I'm going to be using my new/old processor 15" 1.67 gig G4 PowerBooks with FCP and external raid hard drives to capture from the firewire for the most part, though I'll have two 4g P2 cards for really mobile shots.

Also what is the difference between 24p and 24pN from a practical standpoint for this old rookie filmmaker?

Thanks, David

 

[Barry_Green]

Okay, there's two things you have to look at when we talk about firewire output: there's AV/C ("streaming"), and there's SBP2 (file transfer). 24pN will not stream out the firewire in AV/C mode. It will transfer via file transfer when in SBP2 mode.

The USB port can never stream, there is no provision for AV/C control with USB, it's only ever SBP2. So it can transfer files, but it cannot stream.

So -- back to the firewire. You can stream 720p "Over 60" mode, which is the existing firewire transfer protocol for DVCPRO-HD. It's supported in the Mac, it's supported in Windows XP SP2, it's supported in the AJ-HD1200A DVCPRO-HD deck. It's an established, SMPTE-codified transport protocol. And that's what the HVX uses. It's always 100 megabits, 60p frames.

But 24pN and 30pN don't comply with that. They're nonstandard. They're anywhere from 1 to 60 frames per second (there are ways to get down to 1fps, so don't let that throw us off track here). There are potentially about 20 different formats for 24pN mode, and 20 different formats for 30pN mode, none of which are compliant with the SMPTE protocol.

So -- is it impossible for 24pN or 30pN to be made available on the firewire? Probably not, it could probably be done, but I don't know for sure as I'm not a camera engineer. But I do know that it would probably cause confusion and hell for Panasonic's support staff. Avid and Canopus wouldn't be able to capture it because they use Microsoft's WinXP SP2 DVCPRO-HD transport protocol, so the entire world of HVX users would be dependent on the mercy of when Microsoft decided to expand their ONE protocol into about 40+... eh, probably not gonna happen anytime soon, right? And it couldn't stream to the deck and it couldn't stream to the Mac and -- well, it was probably simpler to just say "no" than deal with the 40+ different formats that would apply to.

So -- they implemented SMPTE-compliant streaming. And it can be functionally identical, in that a program capturing that stream can strip out the pulldown frames automatically, so if you shot in 720/24P mode and streamed over the firewire to a Mac, the Mac can strip out the pulldown and record just the straight 24pN data. I'm hoping the Firestore will have enough processing power to allow the same capability.

So in the end, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

Also what is the difference between 24p and 24pN from a practical standpoint for this old rookie filmmaker?

In simplest terms, 24pN is for recording on the cards. 24P mode is for streaming.

 

[Baddack]

Hi,

this is my first post in 2 years reading dvxuser.com. Afraid of my english i presume.

I have a question about cineporter (well, it's not firestore sorry) and the use of a mini35.
How can we use the two systems together, as the 2 "arms" supposed to support the lens are made for a precise height.
If i'm right, with the cineporter hard disk fixed on the camera, it will change this height... ..?

I must say i never used a mini35 before, and the cineporter is still not out...

thanks

 

[holyzoo]

How can we use the two systems together, as the 2 "arms" supposed to support the lens are made for a precise height.
If i'm right, with the cineporter hard disk fixed on the camera, it will change this height... ..?

I was hoping to attach the Cineporter on the bottom of my entire rig, but I'm not using the mini35. Use of the actual mini35 might need alternative mounting.

 

[dregenthal]

Hi,

this is my first post in 2 years reading dvxuser.com. Afraid of my english i presume.

I have a question about cineporter (well, it's not firestore sorry) and the use of a mini35.
How can we use the two systems together, as the 2 "arms" supposed to support the lens are made for a precise height.
If i'm right, with the cineporter hard disk fixed on the camera, it will change this height... ..?

I must say i never used a mini35 before, and the cineporter is still not out...

thanks

There is a thread on the Cine-Porter where, I think, Spec-Comm said they were going to have an option for a longer connection (wire). This would accomodate placing the main unit somewhere other than beneath the camera.

Welcome aboard!

edit: there is a sticky at the top of HVX-200, Hardware section.

 

[Baddack]

thanks, i'll keep searching !

 

[David_M_Payne]

Okay, there's two things you have to look at when we talk about firewire output: there's AV/C ("streaming"), and there's SBP2 (file transfer). 24pN will not stream out the firewire in AV/C mode. It will transfer via file transfer when in SBP2 mode.

The USB port can never stream, there is no provision for AV/C control with USB, it's only ever SBP2. So it can transfer files, but it cannot stream.

So -- back to the firewire. You can stream 720p "Over 60" mode, which is the existing firewire transfer protocol for DVCPRO-HD. It's supported in the Mac, it's supported in Windows XP SP2, it's supported in the AJ-HD1200A DVCPRO-HD deck. It's an established, SMPTE-codified transport protocol. And that's what the HVX uses. It's always 100 megabits, 60p frames.

But 24pN and 30pN don't comply with that. They're nonstandard. They're anywhere from 1 to 60 frames per second (there are ways to get down to 1fps, so don't let that throw us off track here). There are potentially about 20 different formats for 24pN mode, and 20 different formats for 30pN mode, none of which are compliant with the SMPTE protocol.

So -- is it impossible for 24pN or 30pN to be made available on the firewire? Probably not, it could probably be done, but I don't know for sure as I'm not a camera engineer. But I do know that it would probably cause confusion and hell for Panasonic's support staff. Avid and Canopus wouldn't be able to capture it because they use Microsoft's WinXP SP2 DVCPRO-HD transport protocol, so the entire world of HVX users would be dependent on the mercy of when Microsoft decided to expand their ONE protocol into about 40+... eh, probably not gonna happen anytime soon, right? And it couldn't stream to the deck and it couldn't stream to the Mac and -- well, it was probably simpler to just say "no" than deal with the 40+ different formats that would apply to.

So -- they implemented SMPTE-compliant streaming. And it can be functionally identical, in that a program capturing that stream can strip out the pulldown frames automatically, so if you shot in 720/24P mode and streamed over the firewire to a Mac, the Mac can strip out the pulldown and record just the straight 24pN data. I'm hoping the Firestore will have enough processing power to allow the same capability.

So in the end, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference.


In simplest terms, 24pN is for recording on the cards. 24P mode is for streaming.

Thanks Barry, I knew I could count on you to make an answer clear and easily understood to this semi-literate (film wise) filmmaker. I think that 24P will be fine for my first full effort.

David