Cinemartin goes bankrupt

I have had a great deal of interaction and personal knowledge of Cinemartin over the years, in particular when it first made an on camera recorder. I am honestly surprised it lasted this long. It would be inappropriate for me to share details here, but for the curious I suggest you watch Phillip Bloom’s “review” of the Fran prototype. It tells you all you need to know.

BTW, I don’t think it’s fair to lump in other would-be or short-lived companies with Cinemartin.

Craft was basically a scam and I know people who never got their money back. No one ever saw anything out of that but some nice looking drawings.
Axiom is still trying to make its camera happen, but suffers from having no real financing.
Silicon Imaging and Dalsa were both sensor companies who tried to move into cameras.
Aaton and Ikonoskop were film camera companies who tried to move into digital cameras and each released a model that could not perform up to expectations.
At least little Digital Bolex came through to deliver on its promises and even improved the limited platform it had, with the company lasting several years with a small pile of cameras actually sold to paying customers.

I’ve been connected to or on the sidelines of many of the cameras developed in the past few years. Cinemartin was a joke.
 
NorBro said:
lol...R&G late to the party.
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Working 38 hours within a two day/48 hour timespan on just over 2 1/2 hours sleep between the “days” tends to affect my QT on DVX. Lol.

I was just posting a link to the NS article on it. Did I miss someone posting it previously? Two long ass days with no sleep, Hell I could have missed the same iceberg that got the Titanic...
 
Yeah. That's quite "problematic", to use a word we all love now. Who knows. Maybe the products themselves were genius and they just had no good PR/marketing folks, or even anyone with rudimentary presence/charisma (engineering types are notorious for that, aren't they?) to be on camera/represent them, or a DP on call that could show it off its actual capabilities.
 
I quite liked him.. I think he is/was a geek seeing the apparently simple concept of small computers being 'better' than video cameras that seem consistently loaded with 'gotchas' - pointless restrictions like high compression crappy codecs (that is now changing)

Of course seeing that a chip can be bolted to a small powerful computer and actually making a location ready camera (or monitor recorder) is a very different journey.
 
That was anoher thing I meant to bring up...for all their engineering prowess, dont most of these folks fail to consult with professional DPs/videographers to get input on design and how people actually use the cameras? There’s a concept called “user-centered design”. I wont go much into it but basically (as I understand it) its the concept of designing a product based on how people intuitively interact with similar products (in this case cameras), rather than designing something goofy and trying to force people into adapting to it. Requires tons of research and testing, and maybe the firms that do it charge millions (no idea), but these companies could use some of that. Or at least focus group some DPs throughout the design/production cycle.
 
Silicon Imaging does not belong in the same conversation as some of these other companies - after all, the SI2k won Best Picture and Best Cinematography Oscars (Slumdog Millionaire) and was available to the public for years.

Now, the camera could be a nightmare to work with (that extra thick sensor filter that nobody knew about at the time continuously screwed the ACs) and I nearly chucked one into a deep deep southern Utah canyon when I shot with the Slumdog team on their followup film (127 Hours) - but we also got a Best Picture nomination on that one, so the issues weren't insurmountable.

But anyway, the SI2k was far from vaporware - it existed, it worked, I shot with with, and it was being sold to anybody that had the money. Not at all the same as the Cinemartin Fran.
 
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The Ikonoskop (mostly the DII) was loved as well...I was very close to buying one until Blackmagic changed life.

(BM probably indirectly put some people out of business.)
 
Well now you are going too far with the "loved" terminology lol - I actually absolutely hated the SI2k but was paid well to use it and I would have shot with any camera that Danny Boyle and Anthony Dod Mantle wanted me to on that project ;)

I honestly think that Stefan Ciupek is the only person who actually liked the SI2k, but love would probably be too strong a word even for him. It was the only way to get what we needed at the time, however.
 
Josh Bass said:
That was anoher thing I meant to bring up...for all their engineering prowess, dont most of these folks fail to consult with professional DPs/videographers to get input on design and how people actually use the cameras? There’s a concept called “user-centered design”. I wont go much into it but basically (as I understand it) its the concept of designing a product based on how people intuitively interact with similar products (in this case cameras), rather than designing something goofy and trying to force people into adapting to it. Requires tons of research and testing, and maybe the firms that do it charge millions (no idea), but these companies could use some of that. Or at least focus group some DPs throughout the design/production cycle.
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Or they could just look at existing camera designs that people loved to work with... Call me crazy, but I love a camera that is designed to sit on my shoulder from the beginning, instead of a box that can “be all things to all people”. It’s like the old saying, “jack of all trades, master of none”.
 
nothing said:
Well now you are going too far with the "loved" terminology lol - I actually absolutely hated the SI2k but was paid well to use it and I would have shot with any camera that Danny Boyle and Anthony Dod Mantle wanted me to on that project ;)

I honestly think that Stefan Ciupek is the only person who actually liked the SI2k, but love would probably be too strong a word even for him. It was the only way to get what we needed at the time, however.
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I think you're right (although I don't know how the SI-2K compared to the DII)...I actually never really loved any camera; I only liked some more than others.
 
Josh Bass said:
That was anoher thing I meant to bring up...for all their engineering prowess, dont most of these folks fail to consult with professional DPs/videographers to get input on design and how people actually use the cameras? ...
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Yes, engineering often has no access to customers. Not because they don't want to. They'd like nothing more than to get input on the design. But let's face it, putting engineers together with customers is the last thing a company wants; it's dangerous. Engineers are brutally honest and may say things that management doesn't want customers hearing. They tend to say things like "Oh yeah, we can do 8k, 240fps, with 15 stops of dynamic range and it will only cost $7, but we're holding that back for our other camera".

True story: Four of us were developing the specifications of a product. We were having meetings with our biggest customer. We thought these meetings were essential in developing a relationship with the customer and learning exactly what they wanted. Our manager told us to stop having the meetings as it was "a waste of time to talk to the customer". You can't make this stuff up. It is amazing how disconnected some people can be.
 
That’s probably the various entities trying to be unique or distinguish themselves from everyone else. “Can’t we just make a good camera?” “No it must be stand apart from the rest. AHA! I HAVE IT! It shall be based upon the sleek sensual design of the housecat; all the buttons shall hang off the camera body on ‘whiskers’!”
 
Paul F said:
Yes, engineering often has no access to customers. Not because they don't want to. They'd like nothing more than to get input on the design. But let's face it, putting engineers together with customers is the last thing a company wants; it's dangerous. Engineers are brutally honest and may say things that management doesn't want customers hearing. They tend to say things like "Oh yeah, we can do 8k, 240fps, with 15 stops of dynamic range and it will only cost $7, but we're holding that back for our other camera".

True story: Four of us were developing the specifications of a product. We were having meetings with our biggest customer. We thought these meetings were essential in developing a relationship with the customer and learning exactly what they wanted. Our manager told us to stop having the meetings as it was "a waste of time to talk to the customer". You can't make this stuff up. It is amazing how disconnected some people can be.
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I sorta get that. But I also figure at this point DPs would be used to the concept of companies protecting their higher tier lines by holding back features on the cheaper cams. I guess I meant more the ergonomics, port and button placement, etc. Seems like everyone, including management, would win. Satisfied customers = better reviews/word of mouth = more sales. But perhaps I’m naive. My mommy says I’m the handsomest boy in the world, but sometimes, just for a moment, I suspect it might not be so.
 
Another aspect of it is that a product has to hit a certain market at a certain price with certain features to be a success. Suppose Norbro or Run&Gun come along and talk to Big Camera Company and tell them what they want. Against all of their knowledge about the market, Big Camera Company goes ahead with the suggestions. It turns out the be a brilliant camera for Norbro and Run&Gun. So they sell two of them and go out of business because it didn't hit the right market. It's just not that easy.
 
So what do you guys want?

"A solid 10-bit 422 1080p Varicam-like workhorse that sits comfortably on the shoulder and has a variety of physical buttons & switches at your fingertips."

"An 8K box the size of a SSD with fantastic AF and a totally intuitive touchscreen."

Oh.
 
Paul F said:
Another aspect of it is that a product has to hit a certain market at a certain price with certain features to be a success. Suppose Norbro or Run&Gun come along and talk to Big Camera Company and tell them what they want. Against all of their knowledge about the market, Big Camera Company goes ahead with the suggestions. It turns out the be a brilliant camera for Norbro and Run&Gun. So they sell two of them and go out of business because it didn't hit the right market. It's just not that easy.
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I can design a camera that would appeal to everyone which would bankrupt all the other camera companies in short time. Full frame / S35 / M43 switchable, RF/EF/E/M43 switchable mount with AI AF (on all AF lenses), AI NR and arbitrary scaling (8K, 16K, whatever you want), AI deconstruction "compression" with write speeds to allow for cheap SD cards, up to 1000fps, 15+stop DR, AI color science, modular- can be set up for any size body or weight as desired (electronics fit in a cell phone package), IBIS, etc. This is all possible, right this second. All the tech and manufacturing exists today. Those who understand the true purpose of corporations understand why they'll never give the people exactly what they want (and ultimately it's not about profit- it's about power). Every now and then, Panasonic, Sony, Fuji, etc. give people what they want, and everyone rejoices & buys new cameras, then the manufacturer stops short (just that one critical flaw/missing feature!), slows down, and goes back to the old trickle/up-sell model. And everyone's pissed again, looking to jump ship.

This pattern isn't just for cameras, it's part of capitalism. We've got to come up with another way to provide a fair exchange of energy for work to change the system.

While it's fun to rant about cameras and companies (it's an entire industry now on YouTube!), at this point in terms of doing creative work, there's plenty of cameras that are good enough (have been for a while). Not perfect, but plenty good for any possible creative project.

NorBro- how's the new A6400- any footage uploaded yet?
 
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