Cinema Package

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Re: Cinema Package

Koss, the anamorphic adapter pretty much excludes any use for other lenses. So you can scratch that telephoto from your list. Or the Mini 35. If you are going to film that's the way to be. Besides, in film, what is slightly out of focus can become terribly soft, since the screen is enormous, so DO worry about it. And and eletronic follow focus is nice, for shots where you have the camera away such as a jib, but pretty harder to operate/mark/and time, than a regular gear, besides, you'll have your 1 AC more time to worry about keeping the package intact between shots.

I also strongly advise you to hire a crew before purchasing the equipment (if you really plan on hiring anyone).

That's just to complement what I said earlier, as I have no wish of remaining in this thread, for fear of where things are heading.

Good luck.
 
Re: Cinema Package

[quote author=iamloser link=board=news;num=1101163993;start=30#38 date=11/23/04 at 12:47:55]i suppose i can only hope that people would realize the importance and advantages of learning the knowledge and skills neccissary to be affluent in their craft rather than embrace new technology in hopes that it will replace their need  to do so.[/quote]

I agree with you, however, I have to say that new technology over time does seem to replace the need for skilled "professionals" to perform certain tasks. right now the follow focus mentioned that sparked your original post is fairly new, and obviously it's probably somewhat limited, but judging by how quickly technology changes I believe it's entirely feasible that in maybe 3-5 years it will be just as good if not better than a skilled focus puller. Historically, this is the way of technology, especially electronics...

In fact, if we were to b completely honest with ourselves, it's not entirely unlikely that in perhaps another 20-30 years there will be no need for actors, or cameras at all...We''re likely in the beginning stages of the end of cinema as we know it. With computer generated movies becoming more and more popular, and the capabilities of CG artists, it's entirely possible that in the very near future we'll be making CG movies that are nearly indistinguishable from movies shot with a film camera with real actors, sets, and props...So much for a "focus puller" when that happens.

Look, the point of my response was to suggest that it is somewhat naive and pompous to suggest that only people who lack skill or knowledge would ever use an auto-focus-puller. Just like any other addition to a camera, over time it can become common place to use it. Yes, even for "professionals". Think of all the people who complained when they had to learn a word processor, and then the ones who had to learn to use a computer..."In my day we didn't make mistakes..." Well, it's a new day, and regardless of how "nice" you guys and gals claim to be you often come off as being obnoxious, and inconsiderate of those who are not on "your level".

BTW: This discussion didn't start getting ugly until someone started questioning peoples professionalism, and I'm not the one who started that. I simply responded to it. If you people are so great and professional, you'd think that you'd know not to bring things like that into the discussion, because it usually leads to things like people thinking your pompous jerks. Honestly, read some of the posts that I received toward the beginning of the thread, and put yourselves in my shoes...Be real.
Then it seems like it got really bad when I didn't simply take your off comments up the rear like a champ, and actually had a defense for my position. Like "How dare him..." Who the hell do you people think you are?
If someone asked me the same question I initially asked I would have simply posted the picture of the saferseas Cinepak Package, and given a link...That single bit of information has done more to help me than anything else in this sorry little thread...Sometimes I think that people get drunk on the feeling of being needed...Like the "focus puller" argument...Me, I just want to get the job done...

Sorry if I offended anyone with my "ignorance". Guess I'll see you guys when I change my name? ;)
 
Re: Cinema Package

[quote author=taubkin link=board=news;num=1101163993;start=30#40 date=11/23/04 at 15:30:38]And and eletronic follow focus is nice, for shots where you have the camera away such as a jib, [/quote]

:) ..absolutely its nice to have a remote focus device in situations like this. unfortunately the sonys feature that i was discussing is not remote, and requires you to be close enough to hit a button to make it work. :-/

there have been some remote follow focus sytems built and that are for sale that actually track the distance to subject and adjust focus accordingly by using an aimable laser that another operator operates and keeps on the subject though.. its mainly used for really fast moving stuff where a focus puller wouldnt be able to keep it dead on with the constant change.



koss,

i hope you dont see my posts as a sort of personal attack in any way. i was merely stating my opinion on the use of such a device as the sonys programmable focus ability. i am aware that technology can replace the need for extra hands, but what im saying is that it cannot replace the art in hands. part of the art of cinematography is learning how to use the focus on the camera.. im not saying that it cant be done with a computer calculating it for you, im just saying that it shouldnt have to be. in my opinion its sort of like having a robot feed you instead of learning how to use silverware. but i understand if you disagree, and i fine with that . making films is an art form, and whatevr tools you use .. it will always only be as good as the artist. so im happy to have more tools on the table. ;)
 
Re: Cinema Package

I think you meant to say, sorry if I offended anyone with my "arogance", or at least you should have. Look man, reread your thread again. Folks tried to help you and you came off arrogant and obnoxious, which made others myself included question your professionalism. Why? Quite simply because in real-world professional situations there are no easy answers because you are always making compromises. You should know this, in fact, I'm sure you DO know this.

In another thread in the audio section a guy asked about building a recording booth. He asked a very simple question, but it isn't REALLY a simple question - he just doesn't know it yet. Now I could have given him one of six simple, boiler-plate answers but it probably wouldn't have helped him very much, so instead I responded by asking HIM questions. His reply will allow me and others to provide information that is actually of value to him. This is what folks were doing here. And even though this takes much more of our time, this is what this community is all about, helping others with similar goals and aspirations. Hell, I don't even own a DVX and the folks on this board have welcomed me in and taught me things beyond my wildest expectations. They are good people.

And by the way, even though I'm still learning a pepper from a junior and how to run a camera, I have over 25 years experience working with audio and composition. I have spent time on more than a few film sets, from student indie projects to feature films and I will tell you that the advice I gave you (which you dismissed without an intelligent reply) is standard and any *pro* would know this.

Matt
 
Re: Cinema Package

If you're leaving a bar, and everyone tells you that you're drunk, you might want to think about calling a cab.
 
Re: Cinema Package

Wow. I have to take issue with some of the thoughts you express about electronic focus pulling and the implications about “eliminating someone’s job”

Look, there are some things that simply aren't accomplished well with technology. As much as our ability with computing and electronics advances, our brains retain a level for rapid and adaptive function that isn't approached electronically and won't be rivaled within your quoted timeframe. While humans often can’t add, subtract, multiply or divide raw information as fast as a computer, there are advanced visual processes that our brains tackle with ease, yet consistently baffle modern computing and electronics.

While we may be able to successfully design and implement an electronic routine to adjust focus from point A to point B, the real skill and advantage in having an experienced focus puller is the ability to do this in a natural and fluid manor without direct input from the operator or DP. It’s not how a focus puller turns the knob, it’s about WHEN the focus puller turns the knob.

Designing an electronic process to do this with abilities to rival a human operator would require quantum leaps in electronic visual analysis, as this proposed electronic operator would be required to cognitively assess the distance, motion and timing of every subject in the frame. This isn’t something we currently have the ability to do easily, and even if we could, it would require a rack of equipment more expensive then any focus puller in the world.

We can’t design successful routines to consistently identify faces in a crowd. Even with the power of multiple server-based computers, local area radar and a multitude of visual and infrared cameras, we can’t get a self-operated automobile to consistently distinguish the difference between a bush and a pothole.

I’m suggesting that there’s far more to camera assisting then applying a specific voltage to a servo motor for a specified period of time, but your post implies that there’s a concerted effort to reject such an advance in technology for fear that it might simplify the filmmaking process and eliminate unnecessary labor. That is something I take issue with.

While there is the apocryphal belief that advances in technology displace the need for "skilled professionals", time has proven again and again that such advances actually create the need for more trained meat-based counterparts to operate, service, design and incorporate the advances. Even if there are leaps in technology that might eliminate members of the production team, you will find that you’re going to end up adopting new crewmembers, consultants and technicians to service and operate the new technology.

This applies to CG filmmaking as well, and it is entirely ignorant for anyone to suggest that a move to fully computer generated film will eliminate excess labor and reduce cost. Taking a short look at the credits of any CG film will show that it takes an army of expensive technicians and artists well over a year to finish any CG film of merit.

Going CG eliminates the cost of rentals, film stock, cinematographers, grips, gaffers, and a host of other people, yet it also requires an army of people that aren’t needed in a non-CG effort. You’re just trading one kind of technician for another, one kind of technology for another, and in the end there is no appreciable reduction of cost. You still need lighting designers, model designers, animators, voices, sound effects designers, storyboard artists, directors, writers, background creators, continuity, colorists, coordinators, consultants, directors, sound mixers, composers, motion capture artists, and an army of computer and IT technicians.

The fact is that regardless of a technological advance, there is still the need for a human operator to elicit the best of the advance. Even with the most simplified and automated CG creation workflow, there will still be the need for a small army of creators to make something anyone is going to be interested in watching.

“The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows.”
-Frank Zappa.
 
Re: Cinema Package

[quote author=kosstheory link=board=news;num=1101163993;start=30#34 date=11/23/04 at 11:53:41]They say it's for cinematographers...

Package #1 DVX CinePack
AG-DVX100 Cine DP Package

http://saferseas.com/vsd/eye/eye13.html

Can you give me any more info on the problems with using the anamorphic lens with other lenses and this matte box?

Also, I was leaning toward the mini35 setup until you made your comments about the differences in picture sharpness when blown up to the big screen...Can anyone shed some light on the situation?[/quote]

This package is significantly more expensive, but it includes the Anamorphic adapter and the follow focus, as well as the other lenses and accessories. With this package, you should have no problem using the mattebox on the anamorphic. The other lenses cannot be used at the same time as the anamorphic... it's either widescreen, or telephoto, or fisheye; combining any of them is not possible. Of course, you can use the anamorphic for the wider shots of landscapes and scenery, where the additional detail will come in very handy. For closeups, though, you may want the telephoto to get shallower depth of field. Closeups don't need the anamorphic to look good.

I personally don't think you NEED the follow focus unit to achieve good focus pulls, but I'm sure it makes it easier. Whether it's worth the price will depend on how much you're willing to spend for a "luxury" item that won't make the footage LOOK better.

I'd probably still go for the Safer Seas "Eye of the Storm Studio" package, but if using the anamorphic and a follow focus are important, then go with the CinePack. I think it's splurging, but it seems to be what you're looking for.
 
Re: Cinema Package

[quote author=MattC link=board=news;num=1101163993;start=30#43 date=11/24/04 at 07:12:22]Folks tried to help you and you came off arrogant and obnoxious, which made others myself included question your professionalism.  Why?  Quite simply because in real-world professional situations there are no easy answers because you are always making compromises.  You should know this, in fact, I'm sure you DO know this.[/quote]

So, you no longer think I'm 14? :P

look, an online forum is not a professional environment. It's a place were people who have like interests can exchange information in a casual yet effective manner. I've been using them for quite a while now, and I have always managed to get the info I needed without the kinds of responses I've had here.

Unless you can show me where I was being arogant in my intial two posts I don't want to hear it.

Moving forward, I acknowledged the individual who posted the info on Saferseas because that was the most helpful info. It was precisely what I was looking for, and it was fairly simple to do. So, at least one person here understood exactly what I was asking and replied in a casual yet effective way.

I've contacted Saferseas and ZGC and I am expecting qoutes from both of them with similar setups.

When they give me the qoutes I'll post the info here and allow you anyone who cares to do so to pick through it and tell me the pros and cons...
 
Re: Cinema Package

To be fair Koss

It seems every single person in this thread has pointed out your deficiency in human interaction and communication skills. (The drunk analogy was spot on). Some folks have interpersonal skills and some do not.

Every blue moon someone comes in here and is abrasive and hard to deal with and we tolerate it to a degree as we understand that not everyone is cool.

We're here to help if you want it but lay off the stick a little huh?
 
Re: Cinema Package

I think Koss and Sergie are the same person...

Koss please read this post. I'm saying this calmly.

I was the one who got to the point and tried to help you out, and warned you about your attitude, the only thing I'm going to say is that:

You're asking for help with what each product we tell you about. With a quick search you can find what a follow focus is, I just had a big discussion on them, and what they do.

In the searches you can also find reviews from people who own them. And from there you can make your decision on which is best.

But really you posting this thread and asking "what's best?" is really saying:
1. you're better than us and that you don't have to search like we do
2. Because you've been on forums, we should just give you the info.
3. You can treat us however you want.

Just cool off man...
 
Re: Cinema Package

i love how when people like this get on here, he's right but everyone else is wrong. No matter how many people on here tell him that he's being non-professional and hard to deal with, he's deny it. I just find it crazy how a 'pro' doesn't know what a few things we've mentioned here are, ex. calling a matte box "camera barn doors".

bah, just go spend all the money you want, hopefully you'll realize you dont need it and sell it to someone who will actually put it to good use (because they know how to use it instead of relying on 'technology' to do it for them).
 
Re: Cinema Package

Yeah for someone who has done 3 independent films I wonder if he meant he 'catered' 3 independent films.
 
Re: Cinema Package

John Hudson: Ok first you should film...

Koss: by film you mean...

John Hudson: WIth your camera...

Koss: by camera you mean...

John Hudson: Your DVX...

Koss: by "your" you mean...

;D
 
Re: Cinema Package

taubkin - I would never doubt craft services! Ever! I've been on films with RUBIOS for lunch and Ive been on a film whereas it was a gourmet spread at a 5 star restuarant. Craft sevrcies kicks arse.

Phil - LMAO!

"Hi. I would like to know what accessories to get for my DVX (That I dont even have yet)."

"Whats your budget as this can be $1000.00 or $15,000"

"Unlimited."

"Then get the Cinealta and leave us alone."
 
Re: Cinema Package

Dear Koss, I feel kinda bad because my initial reaction was critical, the final thing I will say is that I ended my initial post will, "Budget $10,000 and move forward" and all these days and pages of posts later the last number I saw was $9500 per camera.

Good Luck in your endeavor

Bill Turner
Century Division
Schneider Optics
 
Re: Cinema Package

[quote author=John Hudson link=board=news;num=1101163993;start=45#52 date=11/24/04 at 11:57:51]Yeah for someone who has done 3 independent films I wonder if he meant he 'catered' 3 independent films.[/quote]

No, if you must know, I actually meant that I had sex with the leading ladies on 3 films...

But then my wife found out!
 
Re: Cinema Package

[quote author=Bill__Turner link=board=news;num=1101163993;start=45#56 date=11/24/04 at 14:59:41]Dear Koss,  I feel kinda bad because my initial reaction was critical,  the final thing I will say is that I ended my initial post will,  "Budget $10,000 and move forward"  and all these days and pages of posts later the last number I saw was $9500 per camera.

Good Luck in your endeavor

Bill Turner
Century Division
Schneider Optics[/quote]

thanks bill, you're a pal
 
Re: Cinema Package

[quote author=Bill__Turner link=board=news;num=1101163993;start=45#56 date=11/24/04 at 14:59:41]Dear Koss,  I feel kinda bad because my initial reaction was critical,  the final thing I will say is that I ended my initial post will,  "Budget $10,000 and move forward"  and all these days and pages of posts later the last number I saw was $9500 per camera.

Good Luck in your endeavor

Bill Turner
Century Division
Schneider Optics[/quote]

Oh yeah, it's awfully big of you to own up to being the one who started this debacle. Honesty is always the best policy, and yours has managed to make me feel better about the whole experience...
 
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