FS7: CineEI burn in LUT vs LUT in post looks different..

Clermond

Clermond

Veteran
I was mostly shooting in custom sLog3 but since FW3.0 and Bert's great Amira-look-alike-LUTS I started playing seriously with CineEI. I am a little confused now. I tested burn in LUT and CineEI plus LUT in post and I don't know why is this different?

Burn in looks darker and has lower contrast than the same shot in CineEI and LUT applied in post
I tested various LUT plugins in FCPX and the same clip in Resolve 12. Burned in LUT is darker and softer.

Also: smallHD 502 on SDI2 and viewfinder look different if for both the LUT is applied in camera.
On eyeball I would say viewfinder comes close to the burn in clip, 502 is more like LUT in post
Camera is rated at EI1000. Any help is appreciated! Thanks!

LUT burn in

2016-02-03_filmlike_burn.jpg



CineEi + LUT in post
2016-02-03_filmlike_post.jpg
 
In post did you adjust exposure for the EI1000 rating before applying lut? Only catalyst browse carries the meta deta of EI changes automatically.
 
no I did not. I do not use Catalyst as I directly ingest into the NLE

I just checked in Catalyst Browse. Metadata indicates EI 1000 for both.
The sLog3 file has in the color adjust window Exposure Index as ISO 2000.
That's why it looks brighter.
 
Clermond said:
no I did not. I do not use Catalyst as I directly ingest into the NLE

I just checked in Catalyst Browse. Metadata indicates EI 1000 for both.
The sLog3 file has in the color adjust window Exposure Index as ISO 2000.
That's why it looks brighter.
Click to expand...

Yes when using EI you are still recording the file at 2000ISO but will be over exposing to bring down in post and crush the noise floor. When burning in the lut you are burning an image at an adjusted EI1000. If you adjust the EI non lut file then add the lut they should look the same.
 
thanks again for the explanation. I am still a little confused but it get's clearer ;-)

As it is no "real" ISO adjustment: what does the display show at EI 1000 then when you activate a LUT in the viewfinder (with and without burn in)?
 
Clermond said:
As it is no "real" ISO adjustment: what does the display show at EI 1000 then when you activate a LUT in the viewfinder (with and without burn in)?
Click to expand...

It is displaying what the footage would look like if you adjusted exposure to ISO1000 in post and applied lut. When you burn it in it acted like adjusting ISO but when you don't burn it in the expectation is that you make the exposure adjustments in post before applying a lut. I just wish more programs used the sony meta data attached to the CineEI files the way they do with Red and other cameras using EI adjustments.

I'm sure someone with a clearer explanation will come around.
 
there are exposure compensated luts as well... or you can create your own in LutCalc - so if you rate everything you shoot at EI 1000 - then you can stick with one lut (in theory anyway) in post in any program... and tweak from there
 
markfpv said:
there are exposure compensated luts as well... or you can create your own in LutCalc - so if you rate everything you shoot at EI 1000 - then you can stick with one lut (in theory anyway) in post in any program... and tweak from there
Click to expand...

but then you need different ones for burn in and for post.
or a second for exposure compensation in post. right?
 
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Clermond said:
but then you need different ones for burn in and for post.
or a second for exposure compensation in post. right?
Click to expand...
The easiest way to deal with LUTs is to build a 3 node adjustment with the LUT in the middle in Resolve. First node adjusts the gamma to standard Slog or whatever, second is the LUT, third is post out tweak. Then you may add others as needed for secondaries.

The same can be accomplished in FCPX by using ColorFinale. There basically are nodes there as well. Arranged by vertical position in the interface.

There are lots of tutorials about how to accomplish this. ColorFinale has them for free on the site. Lynda.com has great Resolve tutorials as well. And there are lots of others.
 
thanks for the advice, Olof. I am just looking for a good looking easy to shoot and quick to grade LUT which does not need much or individual treatment for editing. If color grading is required it can be done on the basis of the CineEI slog3 by a colorist
 
+1 on Olof's advice. Color Finale is a gem of a tool - and a must for FCPX if you're grading. Personally using the extended versions of either the SGamut3CineSLog3 To LC-709TypeA or the 709800 version of same are both "easy to shoot and quick to grade LUTs".... gets you pretty close with 1 click of the mouse.
 
I played around with LUTCalc. It's easy to create a "neutral" LUT with the same in and out gamma and gamut. ISO corrected, lifted black level to 6% IRE . Bot LUTs loaded in ColorFinale, it looks very close to the burned in LUT. I saved it as a preset and will go on testing tomorrow with more light.
 
And one other thing... (though have not tried it recently since CB updated)...as Frame Farm said earlier - Cat Browse - does read the FS7 metadata - so if you "rate" / shoot at 1000 iso in CineEI... and open that footage in CB - it will do exp compensation for you. Early on, when I first got my camera, I would export that LUT created in CB and use that in FCP X. (this should still work but have been told on this forum that PremPro doesn't recognize CB luts)
 
Clermond said:
thanks for the advice, Olof. I am just looking for a good looking easy to shoot and quick to grade LUT which does not need much or individual treatment for editing. If color grading is required it can be done on the basis of the CineEI slog3 by a colorist
Click to expand...

Well no grading solution is really better with Custom mode IMHO. WYSIWYG very easy. What you see in the camera is what you get and you can still have 11-12 stops DR. I have a couple really nice Custom paint settings that do this. And you have WF in cam to make are you are not blowing anything out.

Just set up a color chart and a few props, use a Pro monitor and scopes for greatest accuracy. You can this way build a Custom setting that looks just the way you want. Then test it in a few scenes outside etc and come back and tweak. In a few hrs you will have a perfect solution.

The great thing doing it this way is you can just hand the files of for broadcast or whatever, you know what they look like already. This is much easier then messing with LUTs IMHO.
 
olof said:
Well no grading solution is really better with Custom mode IMHO. WYSIWYG very easy. What you see in the camera is what you get and you can still have 11-12 stops DR. I have a couple really nice Custom paint settings that do this. And you have WF in cam to make are you are not blowing anything out.
Click to expand...

I know that's what you prefer and what you recommend in your masterclass (which I purchases btw) In 7 months of shooting I was searching and testing to get a skin tone in custom "ready to edit" that comes close to CineEI LC709A. You can find some threads I opened in this matter. I was not 100% satisfied with the LC709A LUT, there was still a shift towards magenta that's why I stuck with custom slog3, individual WB and a Cine2custom LUT.
For me FW3.0 and Bert's ARRI matching LUT is a game changer. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?343956-FS7-matching-AMIRA

I don't see these colors in custom settings. I also realized we both have a obviously different taste in skin tones.
No problem and thanks again for your advice and the great masterclass tutorial which was helpful in many cases.
 
Clermond said:
I know that's what you prefer and what you recommend in your masterclass (which I purchases btw) In 7 months of shooting I was searching and testing to get a skin tone in custom "ready to edit" that comes close to CineEI LC709A. You can find some threads I opened in this matter. I was not 100% satisfied with the LC709A LUT, there was still a shift towards magenta that's why I stuck with custom slog3, individual WB and a Cine2custom LUT.
For me FW3.0 and Bert's ARRI matching LUT is a game changer. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?343956-FS7-matching-AMIRA

I don't see these colors in custom settings. I also realized we both have a obviously different taste in skin tones.
No problem and thanks again for your advice and the great masterclass tutorial which was helpful in many cases.
Click to expand...

You mix me up with Doug. It is his video you are talking about.

I do a similar workflow, but not exactly the same paint settings. Play with them you can make the FS7 look pretty much any way you want with a bit of patience.
 
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