CineD vs CineV

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DanHD

Well-known member
I'm a bit confused as to what processing goes on in the HVX DSP when these gamma settings are used..


Does CineV simply amplify the signal in the midtones and lower the signal in the shadows/blacks ect to create higher contrast? In this case, wouldn't CineV be noisier in midtones?

Or

Does the opposite occur with CineD? Meaning the DSP simply adds gain to the shadows to bring out more detail, ect, which would of course lead to lots of noise in shadows, right?

Which one is inherently noisier and why?
 
actually i think the CINED looks like its actually flattenign the highlights, and adding gain to the dark parts to increase Dynamic range...
 
ok, so...

CineD does ADD gain to the shadows?

Can someone confirm this? Barry?

So in this case it would be better to shoot in CineV?

I just want the least processing available. I want to do all correcting in post. Add gain in post where I need to, ect

I don't want the DSP adding gain anywhere
 
And Timir the one thing I DO know is that CineD doesnt flatten highlights...actually there's no Knee function at all...they simply clip to white in that case.
 
DanHD said:
And Timir the one thing I DO know is that CineD doesnt flatten highlights...actually there's no Knee function at all...they simply clip to white in that case.
Click to expand...

Cine D does have knee compression, it just starts at a lower IRE, more like 85. It also expands the toe for more shadow detail. Gamma correction always has the potential to add noise, but no gamma correction is not a viable option.

Cine D will let you record the most latitude and give you more grading range, but it is the most aggressive compression of highlights and expansion of mid-blacks.
 
Dan:

I think that a few pictures here would be worth a thousand words. Page down to the samples near the end of the article and you will see identical scenes shot with the HVX200 and the HPX170. Each is shot with both Cine V and Cine D settings so you can see and compare for yourself. http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/hpx_170_evolution_brockett.html

If detail retention is needed or a filmout or quality color correction, definitely shoot Cine D. If you don't know how to color correct very well and want punchy/contrast straight from camera, Cine V.

Dan
 
Thanks guys!

That's odd, in Barry's book it says that CineD has no knee compression. Maybe he is wrong?


So, CineD adds gain to shadows right? So you'll find shadows more noisy?

I just wanted to know, Does cineD add gain, or is CINED an honest representation of what the sensor is capturing? Which Gamma setting does the least processing/gain adding, ect?
 
all I know is cine D looks the best to me. yea its grainy... but whatever....
 
lol


well alright then!

Yeah I love the look of CineD, I was just hoping someone could answer my questions
 
Here is a clip shot in cine D:
http://vimeo.com/2749267

I do not like it for outside shots before 6pm on grass shots.
It makes grass look wrong in so many ways. It also makes yellows over saturated.
This scene had way too much contrast, which had to be flattened in post to make it flat
(the way it looks now, originally the yellows and highlights were just out of control).

Eventually it was re-shot in cine V, with added fill light on the subjects which allowed the grass to stay more true and not blow out.
we also re-shot it earlier in the day, to fix the contrast issue.


I Do not have the re-shot image to show, but I prefer Cine V for outside shots.
I may shoot Cine D if I am shooting in a very low contrast situation.
 
But my question still stands

1.) Does CineD have a knee circuit or not. Barry Green says it doesnt

2.) Does CineD ADD gain to shadows, or is it representative of the chips response to light. Meaning, CineD would add as little processing as possible. I just want to know why lower mid tones and shadows look so much more noisy in CIneD. They look as if they have been emphasized with gain inthe DSP
 
The cine gammas don't have an adjustable knee. They are a fixed curve. With that said, the cine-D gamma brings the highlights down further than a regular gamma with the knee on low. So there's no user-adjustable knee, but the cine gammas definitely bring the highlights down.

As to whether there's gain or not being added, only Juan Pertierra or the Panasonic engineers can answer that definitively. Look up the old reel-stream pictures from the Andromeda; that was raw data pulled directly off the chips. It's safe to say that you cannot get raw data off the HVX, DVX, or HPX cameras, they all undergo in-camera processing.

If you want the widest dynamic range, that's cine-D.
 
Barry, I understand what you are saying, but why in your book do you say, for CineD, that:

"there is no knee protection at the top end of the scale"

So what you're saying is that there IS a knee, but it's just not adjustable?
 
DanHD said:
Barry, I understand what you are saying, but why in your book do you say, for CineD, that:

"there is no knee protection at the top end of the scale"

So what you're saying is that there IS a knee, but it's just not adjustable?
Click to expand...

So you know that the highlights are brought down, and the dark areas are boosted, and can be more noisy than other gamas, and that for me, it made greens and yellows unnatural when exposed to high contrast situations (not so much of a problem with low contrast situations).

So why do you care beyond that?
What problem or situations are you looking to resolve?

Most would say that cine D will give you more noise in shadows, but offer more if you want to grade later.

I think any gama can be graded just fine if you take it to 10 bits, so as long as you can get it exposed, you can grade it.

You may have to just experiment yourself to get your answer.
 
DanHD said:
Barry, I understand what you are saying, but why in your book do you say, for CineD, that:

"there is no knee protection at the top end of the scale"

So what you're saying is that there IS a knee, but it's just not adjustable?
Click to expand...
Perhaps what I should have said is that there's no "auto knee". Sometimes shooters rely on the auto knee to bail them out of overexposed/blown-out whites. Because the knee function is disabled, you can't manually set it, nor can you set it to auto.

There is a fixed slope that cine-d and cine-v employ. So in that sense there is no "knee" because you can't change that slope. However, the levels of the brightest areas are already brought down further by the fixed slope than they would be if you used knee on low in the other gammas.

Hope that makes sense.
 
Alright. Thank you!

I was just wondering about the deep technical aspect of the gammas, and which ones added gain in the DSP, and such, but I see no kne knows, so I guess I'll let it go.



Thanks for your help though!
 
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