Cine lens dilemma: Veydra mini-primes vs Sony Cine Altas

Cine lens dilemma: Veydra mini-primes vs Sony Cine Altas

  • Veydra Mini Primes (4 lenses)

    Votes: 1 7.7%

  • Sony Cine Alta (6 lenses)

    Votes: 6 46.2%

  • Other

    Votes: 6 46.2%
  • Total voters
    13
P

Parabola

Member
Hi all. My full-time job is a corporate gig and I've been given the go-ahead to pick up some dedicated Cine glass to pair with our Sony FS7's. I have nowhere near the level of experience that many of you do, so I'm reaching out in hopes that you can flag anything I might not have thought of, or just provide a "I'd go with ___".

Now, for a bit of additional context:
  • We shoot mostly interviews, docu's, demos, skits, commercials, that sort of thing;
  • We're not concerned about how we stack up next to a major Hollywood production, but we need to be able to produce high quality products internally because outsourcing this work has proven far too costly (and yes, I know gear is just a small piece of the puzzle);
  • There are no concerns about what will rent better, or getting jobs based on what's on our gear list;
  • Selling these lenses down the road to recoup costs if they aren't working out is not an option. Therefore retained market value does not enter the equation at all;
  • We don't have a big crew (i.e. no 1st AC to handle focus), so mostly one man band stuff;

Moving on...

Option 1: 25mm, 35mm, 50mm Veydra mini prime kit, and probably the 85mm as well (it's my understanding that the other focal lengths won't come in Sony E-mount/cover the S35 sensor).
Link: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...kitcasesonyei_mini_prime_25_35_50mm_sony.html

The Good: Very inexpensive, small form factor/significantly lighter for Glidecam work, works well for a stripped down setup without rails and follow focus,
The Bad: New on the scene (so it's hard to know what to expect from these over time), optically inferior (CA and sharpness) wide open vs the Sony's

Option 2: Sony Cine Alta 6-pack primes
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/906631-REG/sony_scl_pk6_f_cinealta_4k_six_lens.html

The Good: More focal length options in the matched kit, optically superior, currently on sale for $18,000 (CAD) which stacks up very well even against offerings from Zeiss, Cooke, etc.
The Bad: Much more expensive than the Veydras, too heavy to be used on this camera without a rig to support it, which also means it doesn't really play well with the glidecam stabilization system we have already.


Current thoughts:
They are obviously at very different price points but that is part of the dilemma. There's room in the budget for the Sony's if it makes sense, but I do NOT want to blow $15K unnecessarily. At the moment, I'm definitely leaning more towards the Veydra "kit".

However, on that note, I've seen some people say that a 3 (or 4) piece set of primes does not constitute a kit at all and you should really strive towards a more complete set like a 6-pc. Now, admittedly, I didn't think the 135mm focal length, or to a lesser extent the 20mm (given you have a 25mm), would be too hard to get along without... What do you guys think about that? If you have a 6 piece kit, are you glad you have all that coverage? On the contrary, if you don't have 6+ pieces of matching glass, do you often find yourself wanting for additional focal lengths?

We DO have some nice stills glass (e.g. Nikkor 14-24mm 2.8, Nikkor 70-200mm 2.8) that can fill in gaps on either end of the range, so it's not like we're completely cut off from those focal lengths.

Anyway, thanks for reading, and also for any advice you can lend. Cheers!
 
I bought the Veydras in m4/3 mount, & haven't swapped to E-mounts, so never tried them on the FS7. Nice optics, but not really Cine lenses as the marks are useless for pulling focus. The m4/3 mount isn't stiff enough so when the lens hits it's hard stops a follow focus can torque the mount & shift the image. Sony's E-mount is not particularly strong either so likely suffers the same effect.

Veydra has a clamp that supposed to reinforce the mount, but it's not a complete solution, & will need jury rigging. The Sony lenses will require a PL mount, & as long as it supported by rails (or in Wooden Camera's case, attached to the Top Plate) it will not torque.

Between the two choices I'd go with Sony's lenses. Stronger build, more focal lengths, but could use a wider option (16mm or 18mm). Your Nikkor can handle the wides, but focuses the opposite direction of Cine lense, which drives me nuts. A reversing follow focus may be a solution, but I often prefer to just grab the barrel.

If your doing a lot of interviews consider Sony's 28-135mm f/4. It's stabilized & offers a number of Cine-esgue features (parfocal, 5:1 servo zoom, dedicated step-less aperture ring, long-throw focus ring with hard stops). The 5:1 range, parfocal behavior, & constant aperture, are particularly useful for recomposing while shooting interviews. Many prefer to shoot 4K, & recompose in post, but I'm not a fan, & much prefer to do it in-camera. It's not well suited for use with a follow focus due to the rubber focus ring, nor particularly wide, & the minimal focusing distance is wanting, but none-the-less a versatile lens.
 
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As a one-man-band on a budget, usually handling direction, camera, light and editing, I can usually get away with a limited selection of focal lengths if I can control what's going on. Most of the time I find myself short on time for switching lenses and wished I had a decent zoom lens. Having a complete set of lenses is nice, but I guess only critical if you need to be able to cover all situations and demands of a director.
If you are also the "director" you can usually solve the lack of lens options by being creative with angles and positions.
 
Thank you all for your insights thus far.

@Bern Caughey
On the Veydra mount: That's a shame to hear about the sketchy mount of the mini primes. I will try to find more info on that before I make a decision to see if the E mount would be affected in the same way. Do you think that, with a follow focus that has a hard stop feature (like with this unit http://ikancorp.com/productdetail.php?id=692) you could eliminate this problem? Essentially discharge that energy into the FF unit/rods instead of torquing the lens mount? Not ideal, obviously, but could it be a workaround... Oh yeah, that FF unit can reverse directions too so the Nikkors would be less of an annoyance.

On the PL mounting requirement: we were looking at buying the FS7 rig by Tilta anyway (http://ikancorp.com/productdetail.php?id=1090), which happens to come with a support for lens adapters already. Hopefully we wouldn't run into compatibility issues with either of the PL->E adapters available for us to purchase (Metabones or 16X9), but I'm assuming the "connection" should be fairly straightforward: adjust the threaded platform until it touches the foot of the lens mount adapter.

Sony's 28-135 F4 OSS lens: Sorry, perhaps I should have mentioned that we actually have a pair of these already for the RNG type stuff, and also for interviews where we want the ability to live zoom. However, I think we get a more pleasing image from some of our Nikkor primes over this lens so sometimes we will do just as you say and shoot with those in 4K and do the re-composition in post.

Wide Angle options: I have to look into it a bit more, but I think I will pick up a Metabones Speedbooster Ultra for use with the Nikkor 14-24mm. I'm not sure if it will be usable all the way out to 14mm but it will be a useful piece of kit to have in the bag anyway.

@robmneilson: Thanks for chiming in. If you have to fault the Cine Altas for something, what would it be? Does the size/weight of the lenses limit you in any way (thinking mostly in terms of stabilization options), or is it just a matter of buying the right tools for the job?

@dmitrizigany: Same here; one-man-band (sometimes 2-3 for the more important and/or demanding shoots) so there's no real concern for meeting demands of a director. Obviously efficiency is still important, but we typically have control over our productions (at least most of the important ones) so we can dictate the pace.

Though I am fortunate enough that budget is perhaps less of a limitation, but I still like to think economically (maybe even moreso!) when it's not my money, you know?
 
In alternative universe the same you who's spent $800 on Sigma 24-70 and $600 on Tokina 11-20 and a few extra hundreds on a telephoto lens is getting THE SAME results as the one who's shelled out $13k..... Absolutely no need for prime lenses for interviews.
 
It might be worth considering that while long throw is a good thing in general some cine lenses are so long that they are hard to pull manually.

My feeling is the cine lenses (sony) wont really work in a one man band setup

--

Your set will probably need to start at 18, not 25 if you intend to do any kind of 'normal' coverage of scenes so the Vedras selected is just a start point.



S
 
maybe consider what will have better resale value, maybe it doesn't matter, but I would always factor that in to any decision where thousands of dollars are involved.

Cheers good luck with what you decide
 
@Patryk_Rebisz: Thank you for urging me to question the value added of such costly gear before taking the plunge, but the truth is there is a bit more variety in the types of productions we do than just interviews. We have been using some fairly nice stills glass to good effect so far, but a matched set of cine primes seemed like a logical next step while there is room in the budget to upgrade from stills glass. My expectation was that these lenses would produce beautiful images with very little CA, focus breathing, distortion, etc. while simultaneously making it easier to execute some shots (e.g. longer focus throw == more precise focus pulls?**). We often shoot stuff with high ranking executives and it sucks when you have to say "can we run that again? I missed the focus", or otherwise swallow your pride and keep moving in the hopes that it's "good enough" and that people won't notice in the final product.

**In case it wasn't obvious, I've never used cine lenses, nor will I have an opportunity to do so before I need to make this decision (I know). Perhaps my assumption that focus pulling would be easier is not entirely true?
@morgan_moore: By pulling manually, do you mean just with your hand/without a FF? Or do you mean it's hard to op and maintain focus without another set of hands remotely pulling for you (e.g. with a wireless, motor driven system or something)? Because at 240° of rotation on a large diameter lens, if it's unreasonable to expect that maintaining focus would almost always be easier (I could see where long pulls could be more challenging freehand), then that's opposite from what I was expecting. Would you mind elaborating a little on what exactly you meant? I would appreciate it!

@emretufekci: Thank you for the link. There's certainly some great info in the writeup. As for your suggestion to consider a nice zoom lens, what would you recommend I look at for basically the same-ish price? Buying secondhand is most likely not an option, and it seems that most quality zooms on BH (just getting some ideas) are priced quite a bit higher. Are there some hidden gems out there at a lower price point?

@starcentral: Thanks for the well-wishing, but this really is a "lenses are forever" type of purchase. If they were ever to be sold, those funds would be diverted elsewhere so we wouldn't actually be recouping any costs from this investment. This is probably quite a bit different from most people here, but it is what it is.
 
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Pulling off the barrel could be really hard as the throw is so long is what I meant.

with lenses I think a visit to a shop or a show is really worth while
 
Pulling off the barrel could be really hard as the throw is so long is what I meant.

with lenses I think a visit to a shop or a show is really worth while to get a physical feel
 
Parabola said:
@emretufekci: Thank you for the link. There's certainly some great info in the writeup. As for your suggestion to consider a nice zoom lens, what would you recommend I look at for basically the same-ish price? Buying secondhand is most likely not an option, and it seems that most quality zooms on BH (just getting some ideas) are priced quite a bit higher. Are there some hidden gems out there at a lower price point?
Click to expand...

For a zoom I opted out for a Fuji Cabrio 19-90 which is at the mid-high end for cost. It is worth its weight in gold for me for the type of productions I handle, not sure how it would fit within your budget. I am not that experienced with the DSLR range of lenses/zoom so I would have to defer to the experience of other DVXUSER's here.

If it came down to not finding a zoom within your price range you would like and chose to go with the Primes I would recommend the Sony's.

I tested them a few months back for a shoot back and liked the results at their price range.
 
Going by what I read of the Sony primes and your situation, I say you go for he Sony prime set and never look back. I was going to recommend the Rokinon CINE DS set but those feel a bit like toy lenses and I think you will be happier with a set of big-boy primes. I suggest a Wooden Camera top plate with PL adapter. I am a fan of WC. Their stuff has the build quality of Arri products. Built like a tank and well designed. I have the Wooden Camera Fs7 viewfinder bracket.

The following user review of the Sony primes is encouraging:

"I've been a Canon L glass owner/operator since moving to the 5D Mark II as a video shooter in 2010. And, as good as that glass is, if you're looking at these lenses, you know just how insufficient they are for video work, particularly if you have moved back to video cameras. Having grown tired of renting CP2s and CN-Es, I was surprised to find these much more affordable lenses. Since buying and using them, I've grown even more surprised that they have garnered almost no press or even chatter among cinematographers.

Make no mistake that these lenses are rock-solid (quite literally). As everyone said, yes, they are not lightweight (about six pounds each). And, as cine primes, they are not for everyone. They carry almost no brand recognition or loyalty, and so they are not likely to rent out in favor of glass from the likes of Zeiss or Canon. So, if your business model requires that you rent out your lenses, you might want to reconsider. But, for me, these lenses have changed the game. The price and uniformity, coupled with the quality, is simply unmatched by any other manufacturer. And, because they are less expensive, I don't need to rent them out anyway, which is good for their longevity.

They are matched glass, not just in optical quality/color/other characteristics, but also in terms of their design. They have the same constant maximum aperture. They are all the same size (except for the 135), and they all put the focus gear in the same place. They have the same front diameter. They all share the same bokeh characteristics due to the 9-blade iris. In short, they are a proper set of lenses, unlike the offerings from some of their most closely matched competitors, which have apertures all over the place, and are rehoused still lenses.

But perhaps the most important thing to note is that the character of the lenses works well for me. They are just pleasing to look through. They are not overly clinical, but they aren't too dreamy either. They are quite sharp, but they still produce a nicely rendered image, where you feel like you are right there with the image on screen. Breathing and CA are controlled very well, as is flare. There was no compromise with these lenses, and I was immediately confident that I could implement them with no surprises."
 
I have never used the veydras. But if weight was not an issue, I would go for the Sony primes with no hesitation. Even with weight factored in, I still think the Sonys offer a lot of value. That said, I never shot with veydras to know from experience how they hold up.

I imagine neither set will be very rentable...unless you are in a market where PL glass is not easily accessible locally.
 
My vote would be for 3 zooms which cover all my focal lengths when working as a one man band.

No AC to pull focus on lenses with long focus throws, and swapping out primes gets old when trying to work quickly by yourself.
 
David W. Jones said:
My vote would be for 3 zooms which cover all my focal lengths when working as a one man band.

No AC to pull focus on lenses with long focus throws, and swapping out primes gets old when trying to work quickly by yourself.
Click to expand...

This is true enough, I own a set of primes and they rarely go out because I need an AC to handle fast changes which clients don't always want to pay for. So when a client says they want primes I say add X $ for AC then they look at me funny.

A high quality zoom, or a few variations in focal length zooms are the way to go one-man shows. Owning primes might be more useful for impressing your friends. :shocked:
 
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