Church wants 3-cam A/V mixed recording

David W. Richardson

Chapelgrove Films
Okay, put this in the category of 'Wish List'. My church has asked me to look into the feasibility of doing this, and the costs involved.

Currently we record our Sunday morning service -- video and audio -- using a single camcorder (Canon HF R500) and an audio mixer (Soundcraft EPM-8). The edited video is uploaded to the church's website. Also, DVDs are burned and distributed to our shut-in members.

During the course of the service I have to operate the camera and also handle the audio levels. Previously they would just set the audio levels and pretty much leave them alone throughout the service. However, I noticed problems with that. For instance, when the preacher is delivering his sermon, rustling sounds can be heard from the choir through their mics. So audio control is fluid during the service now, in order to minimize distracting noise issues.

As it stands right now, the videos are pretty dull, visually speaking. Lots of long locked shots. We do zoom in on the preacher for a tighter shot during the sermon, and a couple of other times. But mostly it's long locked shots.

They're wanting to see if it's feasible to do something along the lines of a 3-camera, live-switching kind of setup. I am not knowledgeable in that area, but I suspect what would be needed is the following:

- 3 camcorders, which can be started/stopped/zoomed remotely, preferably through the mixer interface
- 3 wall-attached mounts which can be panned/tilted remotely
- an A/V mixer, or just a video mixer - we could record sound separately and mix it with the video in post
- something to properly record the mixed video and audio from the A/V mixer
- some way to connect everything together, either via cabling or wirelessly
- some kind of monitor to display the video from all 3 cameras, as well as the output video (for mixing purposes)

Have I forgotten anything?

I know it would, in some ways, simplify things if we just recorded from all 3 camcorders and then did the mix in editing, rather than trying to do a video mix on-the-fly. I'm sure that's a skill earned after a long time of training and practice. Controlling 3 camcorders alone is likely going to be challenging, even without having to worry about the audio stuff.

However, I am the only person there who is capable of doing any kind of video editing. Doing the mix in post would greatly lengthen the amount of time it takes to get the finished video uploaded, and anytime I cannot be there to do the editing, they'll be up the creek. Of course, we can do that in the beginning if we have to build this system a little bit at the time, for financial reasons. But I think the ultimate goal is to not only be able to record the 3-camera mix for uploading and distribution, but maybe even to stream the service live. So eventually that's going to require on-the-fly video mixing.

What we do right now is run all of the mics and other audio inputs through the Soundcraft mixer, mix them appropriately, and output them (via an attenuated cable) to the mic input on the Canon camcorder. This gives us a well-mixed audio track on the video in the camera. When it's done, all I have to do is pull the video files from the card into Vegas, trim them, and change the words on a couple of titles that overlay the beginning. Then I render it out and upload it.

We also output the video and audio from the camcorder to a DVD recorder, which makes a master DVD that is currently what is copied and distributed to the shut-ins. I could, of course, make a DVD that's identical to the uploaded video, complete with trimming and titles. But doing it the way they do, they are able to get their DVD copies done very shortly after the service is over, so they can deliver them to the shut-ins within hours, so they will probably continue to do that. And I am able to do the edit and get the video uploaded to their website within a few hours as well.

With the new setup, I suppose we would feed the audio mixer output into the A/V mixer. So really, audio mixing isn't strictly required with an A/V mixer, other than being able to port the mixed audio track from our current mixer into the A/V mixer. So if there's a less expensive option that solely mixes video, that would work.

Can you give me any recommendations for the equipment? Whatever we do, we're going to have to find the money for it. I'm not saying "just tell me the cheapest thing", but we're not loaded either.

I appreciate all your excellent advice!
 
This sounds like a TriCaster setup to me. You want to give my office a call. It's what we do. Texas Media Systems: 512-440-1400
 
I appreciate the info and the offer. But judging from your website, I suspect your solutions will be way above any financial resources we can muster. We're a small church with limited options.

If it turns out that there is no way to do this without spending that kind of money, then we'll most likely have to scrap the idea altogether, at least for now.

Thanks for the response!
 
You need to give some sense of the financial scope for what you're trying to do. Your initial description would be a system that (including cameras) would be well over $20,000. A TriCaster or Sony Anycast based system would work well, but if you can't afford it you can't afford it.

The Convergent Design Apollo may be more to your scale. No individual camera control, but perhaps you can leave some of the remote cameras as lock offs and put Apollo next to your main camera so that you can operate it personally. A separate small audio mixer feeding into Apollo is fairly straightforward and again could be operated next to the house camera and Apollo.
 
If you want to do remote-controlled cameras, you're looking at spending a lot of money. At least $1,000 per camera.

For a switcher, look into Blackmagic ATEM switchers (specifically the ATEM Television Studio.) They are relatively inexpensive and work well. You don't need the expensive hardware control panel, you can use a keyboard and mouse or touchscreen. If you have the budget for the panel, it makes it way easier.

For recorder, you can record directly into a computer from the USB port on the Blackmagic switcher using Media Express.

Keep using the audio console you have, you can take the output from it into the switcher to record both together.
 
Thanks edinc90.

So if we're talking $1000 x 3 for cameras and another $1000 for the Blackmagic ATEM switcher, that's $4000. Then add the pan-tilt mounts for the cams and a monitor, plus a deck to record it all to and cabling. And I can use my laptop computer for the control interface. Seems a lot less expensive than the Tristar systems.

Definitely plan to continue using the audio mixer we have, so that's a plus. Maybe we could find a way to use the Canon R500 that the church already owns as the recording deck.

Can you recommend specific cameras?

Thanks again!
 
Here's a thought...

I have two Panasonic DVX100a's. We don't really need HD output, so I wonder if these would be good cameras to use in this setup? Probably need more heavy-duty motorized mounts.

Just a thought.
 
The Blackmagic ATEM switchers only have HDMI and HD-SDI inputs, so you'll need to uprez your DVX100s to get into the system. If you won't want to go HD, then look for a used Panasonic MX50. It's analog SD, so it can take the composite video straight from the DVX100s.

Recording from an external video source into the R500 is not possible. You'd be better off recording directly to a computer through an interface like the ADVC110.

The cheapest pan tilt head is the Bescor MP-101. It's not great, but it is cheap. Any remote head worth using is going to be in the $3,000+ range.
 
Great information, Ed!

I haven't given up on going HD yet, just exploring the options. That Panasonic MX50 looks pretty great.

You're right, of course. The ADVC110 looks like an interesting possibility.

Maybe that Bescor MP-101 would last longer with a lighter camera than the DVX. Have to think on that.

Maybe I need to re-think the whole setup in a way that lets us start small and add capabilities over time. For instance, we could add 2 more Canon R500's to the one we're using now. Use fixed mounts on the wall, in the back corners, for those two cameras. Pre-set them so that one is configured for a master shot and the other goes is tighter for a closeup on the pulpit. Then use the camcorder we have now to get other shots -- master wide, medium, closeup on the organist or pianist, closeup on a choir soloist or other things. That would give us visual variety for now. Then we could run all of that through the video switcher. That way, the only camera we'd be zooming/panning/tilting with would be the one located at our mixing console, which would simplify things.

Later we could add better cameras, pan/tilt heads, etc.

Something to think about.
 
It looks like the Canon HF-R60 can be controlled via wi-fi and also has manual audio level control. Otherwise, it's pretty much the same as the HF-R500 that we have already.

B&H has it for $250. Adorama has it for the same price, but they throw in a bag, 16GB Class 10 SD card, and a lens cleaning kit.
 
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Take a look at http://www.vmix.com/. With an analog input card that you can pick up quite cheap these days you could use your DVX100A cameras. Why not get a couple of volunteers to operate them rather than going to the expense of remote control?


5050 control web.jpg
 
David,

About 15 years ago I was sort of an "internet guru" on this subject, specifically for churches. Here's an article I wrote back then:

http://www.videouniversity.com/articles/live-video-switching-on-a-budget/


If you go analog, a lot of it still applies except for the camera model numbers. Also, if you go that route, I have a switcher I'll donate, just pay the shipping.

Sorry for the delay in responding. I was out of town for awhile.

Good info on your link. And that's a kind and generous offer. Can you tell me the make/model of the switcher?

Thanks!
 
Interesting stuff.

I wish volunteers were as dependable as equipment. :-(

Sounds like you are trying to mega church broadcast on a nolo church budget...

But the 3 camera setup is the classic broadcast studio setup. In any case, the classic setup requires at least a 'director', who can serve at manage the video board as well, as well as an audio person managing that board.

Also, you would need 3 monitors to select the 'best shot' for the moment, but be able to see the shots on the other monitors, in order to switch quickly.

If you just recorded and then spliced and diced the result, I think that would be a major headache for 'volunteer' work.

Adding camera 'movement' either panning or zooming, would help invigorate the presentation, but again would add expense as well as the need for controlling the cameras remotely.

Sounds like you may have to get an assistant... do you have slav... I mean children old enough to work on such things? Nothing more reliable than a petulant child...

In any case, if motion control, or the like is out of the budget... probably the center camera with a wide view including front rows of the audience, and any choir behind the pulpit, and then the two cameras on the far sides of the room zoomed in a bit to just have the platform/pulpit and choir would allow you to cut between these for a more interesting presentation.

Since you are recording audio via a 'board', I don't see why the cameras need to have any audio going at all, unless just for emergency use.
 
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It doesn't really require multiple monitors, only a single screen with multiple windows -- one for each cam, and one 'program' screen for whichever cam is selected at the moment.

It would be best to have one person on video and one on audio. Whether or not we can find enough people to do that remains to be seen, since we'll need a rotating crew to cover in the event of absences and such. Then again it will take some time for us to get to the point where we're ready to try this, so maybe we can find volunteers by the time we need them.
 
Why not try a set of HD security wifi camera's
I bought one of these things for wildlife filming, also available with pan tilt head and/or wired.

A quick search on ebay will pay off. And quality gets better every year.

Or this one, even with IR

I can't tell you how the quality is because I ordered this item some days ago, but I think It can provide an acceptable picture.

But bottom line is that maybe this gives another approach to your search.
 
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