Chinese 2K RAW S35 Cinema Camera, 8000 dollars

[Dan Hudgins]

1. Noise pattern.
Very peculiar. Very much similar to film grain. But the chroma noise felt a little high. Maybe it will change but maybe it wont.

The noise in the Cineform (tm) results can be different than using the CinemaDNG frames. When processed in my free de-Bayer program temporal noise reduction can be applied and even at EI ISO 1280 you can get almost noiseless looking results. If the footage is converted to H.264 for Vimeo some compression noise may be added that was not so pronounced in the uncompressed version. Its hard to show the quality of the camera other than making a 35mm film transfer or maybe a DCP for showing in a Digital Movie Theater from the DNG frames. You can also apply noise reduction to the Cineform (tm) workflow, but starting with the DNG you may get the best results.

2. Sharpness
It felt a little soft. Certainly not digital pin sharp, but even for film, I would say a little soft. Maybe its the lens. Which lenses were used ? Alvins shots and also shots from China. Is there an OLPF ? Would it affect resolving power ?

The camera has a OLPF filter, so some sharpen needs to be applied to the LUMA in order to compensate for that, you don't want to sharpen the CHROMA as Bayer sensors all have low saturation filters so the noise in the chroma is higher than in the LUMA, and also because of chroma aliasing you don't want to sharpen the chroma, in my free de-Bayer program I have area filters to de-noise the chroma as is common in digital cameras that do in camera processing. Cineform (tm) is running in real time playback so maybe not doing heavy processing to get a smooth look with just the codec adjustments.

3. Color
Not as bad as the Red cameras, but I felt the colors were a little bit muted. Only a bit. Probably thats the character of this sensor. Maybe I need to see more vibrant footage.

Bayer filters have low saturation so that all pixels give some LUMA detail. In order to see bright colors the contrast and saturation need to be graded from the raw data. In order to play the Cineform (tm) to match the in camera monitoring the camera makes a 3D-LUT that you can load into Cineform (tm) codec that will adjust both the brightness, contrast and saturation. If you are grading without using the 3D-LUT from the raw data, then you need to make the brightness, contrast, S-curve and saturation matrix adjustments manually. The saturation of the red, green, and blue from the sensor is not equal so you need to increase the saturation un-evenly using a 9 value matrix, just using the saturation control in some grading software may give unbalanced saturation. My free de-Bayer program has the needed adjustments to get level saturation and the right curve to adjust the exposure EI ISO to normal monitor or gamma corrections.

Keep in mind that when film scans are processed they are de-grained and dust busted and in general transferred to chroma sub-sampled formats that reduce the chroma grain of film stocks. Without de-graining of the film scans the results would probably look higher noise than the KineRAW-S35 (tm) at ISO 2560 since the film would need to be force processed to get an image at that speed.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

I asked and they said they still have S16 on the radar, but need to think about its exact specs given the other cameras on the market now, they also said that the S8 is still in the scope. The S8 may be good for 2/3" lenses and normal 16mm lenses, because the S16 sensors in some cameras are not covered by 2/3" lenses maybe and there are some good 2/3" format lenses as well as 1/2" format lenses that work well with the S8 sensor format which at least in the S8p test camera is larger than Super8 film by a bit on maximum resolution although it has modes that work with Super8 C-mount lenses and 8mm D-mount lenses as well as C and CS mount lenses. If the S8 has a mechanical shutter then it might be totally free of jell-o and skew from rolling shutter, so that is something to ask them about. There is an option for a faster sensor in the S8 that could have a mechanical shutter option maybe, and since its a smaller sensor the shutter diameter would be smaller as well.

 

[kylevant]

I used TEncoder (tm) set to 12000 kbps and two pass compression for the conversion from the graded uncompressed AVI but there are still some compression artifacts that show up here and there, anyone have suggestions for a better free, or maybe not free, encoder for making H.264 video files that Vimeo will accept?

I usually use Avanti with FFMPEG, although TEncoder seems to be a front GUI for FFMPEG in anycase. They usually pass through x.264 instead of H.264. Two passes would be a bit tough for any video as Vimeo adds another pass everytime (also, usually, using a Linux server version of FFMPEG). Depending on the version of FFMPEG used by TEncoder, you could get different results. Best to get Avanti (or another front end) with the latest version of FFMPEG as to get the best output. I find that FFMPEG/Avanti gives a very good size-to-quality ratio, with templates that are always accepted by Vimeo.

 

[Razz16mm]

It is moderately expensive, but hands down Sorensen Squeeze is among the best compression software solutions. It is worth checking out via the 30 day free trial.

http://www.sorensonmedia.com/

 

[youngindiefilms]

Thanks for the info Marc. I'm not entirely sure US customers are responsible for VAT, but I'll admit I don't know much about these things. Haven't had any issues purchasing other cine related items directly from china in the past.

Brandon, I'm based in Hong Kong and we don't have any import duties or taxes for electronics and almost everything else (besides alcohol and tobacco) but I'd still have to pay export duty and VAT which is being charged by the Chinese government.

What that means actually is that if you live in a country/state where you have import duties/tax you might get taxed double even.
I got the clear info from Kinefinity that there is no way around it, since I have been running a trading business for over 12 years I know that Chinese suppliers have ways around it, just Kinefinity won't do anything illegal or something that would get them in trouble.

So I think for now it's a safe bet to just wait and see what happens. For me there are just too many factors out of my control that make the purchase too risky and I'm normally a guy (due to the nature of my trading business) who has imported and exported from and to anywhere without any reservations.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

I usually use Avanti with FFMPEG, although TEncoder seems to be a front GUI for FFMPEG in anycase. They usually pass through x.264 instead of H.264. Two passes would be a bit tough for any video as Vimeo adds another pass everytime (also, usually, using a Linux server version of FFMPEG). Depending on the version of FFMPEG used by TEncoder, you could get different results. Best to get Avanti (or another front end) with the latest version of FFMPEG as to get the best output. I find that FFMPEG/Avanti gives a very good size-to-quality ratio, with templates that are always accepted by Vimeo.

Thanks for the information, its not so much a matter of file size, I used 12000 kbps, its more the nature of the H.264 block artifacts. I read before that in Apple computers there is noise added to the compressed videos, but that ends up making mosquito noise of rapid block artifacts, I have been trying to reduce the noise to avoid block artifacts so that leads to ghost images and other issues. I'll be looking into other options, but if Vimeo allowed a high quality file to be uploaded, then they could compress that and so double compression losses would be reduced, but they do not accept 2K, Cineform (tm) YUV 4:2:2, Prores 4:4:4, or even MPEG1 at 60000 kbps it seems, only MPEG4 or H.264. No uncompressed AVI as well.

Its a problem for showing high quality results because what is needed is for Go-Pro (tm) to have a share site where the video files stream as Cineform YUV 4:2:2 using the full high quality film scan setting. Maybe someone reading this can start a new video share site that is up to the quality of uncompressed Digital Cinema cameras full output?

Thanks for taking time to comment. I have some more footage to post, but you should look at the camera original Cineform (tm) raw files on your own computer to get an idea of how nice the footage can look. My Brother was shooting some footage last night for his lighting tests and with the new revised KineCOLOR monitoring tables the results look very good, we were working at higher light levels and shooting at f/4 so the images are very sharp and the noise lower than the previous test, I set the camera to 2300K even though we were using under voltage house light bulbs on VariAC and it gives a nice cool look of pale blue tint without any grading needed.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

It is moderately expensive, but hands down Sorensen Squeeze is among the best compression software solutions. It is worth checking out via the 30 day free trial.

http://www.sorensonmedia.com/

Thanks for your comments. When possible you look at the camera original Cineform (tm) MOV using the mating 3D-LUT from that shot's shot folder on your own computer to get a better idea of what the camera can do, Vimeo will always be a lossy view no matter what one does to the uploaded files.

 

[kylevant]

Its a problem for showing high quality results because what is needed is for Go-Pro (tm) to have a share site where the video files stream as Cineform YUV 4:2:2 using the full high quality film scan setting. Maybe someone reading this can start a new video share site that is up to the quality of uncompressed Digital Cinema cameras full output?

Yeah, internet speeds will need to catch up but I'm sure we'll see something like this one of these days. In fact, we have to - cloud gaming will push high bitrate, high quality video into the right direction.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

KineRAW-S35 (tm) noise test at 2300K shooting under under-run tungsten lamps

KineRAW-S35 (tm) noise test at 2300K shooting under under-run tungsten lamps

My Brother was doing some lighting tests the other night, so here is a frame test to check the noise level at 2300K setting with the lamps under-run on VariAC at a bit higher temp to get a cool light effect, when in fact the lighting was very orange brown from the low voltage going to the bulbs, that is a good way to control the blue effect without over-running the lamps. The lens used was an OCT-19 LOMO 100mm f/2.0 at about T/4.0. The KineRAW-S35 (tm) was setup for monitoring with the KineCOLOR look group, and then the graded images were applied with an S-curve to lighten the mid-tones quite a bit so the effective EI ISO was about a two stop push processing with the shadows crushed a bit to get the 4th generation film look like a projected release print.

 

[Darkdeity9194]

How's progress going with the camera?

 

[JAWflyer3]

I got the following email from them the other day regarding my inquiry from a few months ago:

Hi Jamie,

Sorry to reply so late.

We have not started to sell cameras to oversea by dealers so far, though we are shipping cameras in China Mainland now. We are talking with some agencies in US and Europe. The price will be much higher after it is dealershipped.

The Professional package is priced in China Mainland is around 9K USD. The standard package is around 8K USD. No Tax included. You can get the detailed configuration of the packages at our website. Down payment is 20% of full price.

You need to make custom clear if you want to buy as direct-selling.



And we will release electronic EF mount part at the end of this year.

electric EF mount? hmm, interesting!

 

[fijimagnum]

I made an enquire to Kinefinity. The return email gave prices and stated that they are now available. I returned an email asking some questions about 5 days ago and are yet to receive a reply. Has anyone purchased one yet? I am interested in getting but not sure about being the first. Information about the company and the camera is difficult to get hold of and I think the communications is difficult with the language barrier. I have been purchase stuff from China and as a whole its worked out well but generally you have to deal with a young girl that speaks English but has no technical training in the products. I dont know if Kinefinity have any English speaking sales staff. Some manuals, more details on the Cam and some references from somebody that has purchased would give me some confidence to go ahead.

Hendrik

 

[fijimagnum]

+ The web site has minimal info and Q&A doesn't work, No info on the extras. If the factory was in Shenzhen I would fly over and check it out but Beijing is load more hassle and expense to get to.

Hendrik

 

[Guest]

Or...
If you don't mind dialing long distance to China, call this number, they should know some enough English to help you out: [FONT=宋体]139-1076-6747[/FONT]

 

[Menno Mennes]

I made an enquire to Kinefinity. The return email gave prices and stated that they are now available. I returned an email asking some questions about 5 days ago and are yet to receive a reply. Has anyone purchased one yet? I am interested in getting but not sure about being the first. Information about the company and the camera is difficult to get hold of and I think the communications is difficult with the language barrier. I have been purchase stuff from China and as a whole its worked out well but generally you have to deal with a young girl that speaks English but has no technical training in the products. I dont know if Kinefinity have any English speaking sales staff. Some manuals, more details on the Cam and some references from somebody that has purchased would give me some confidence to go ahead.

Hendrik

Buying this camera is one thing, but what to do in case of technical problems?
To me it seems me quite tricky ...

 

[fijimagnum]

Getting it fixed, only way is to send it back to China. If they provide a warrantee and quick repair I would be more than happy with that. Living in the South Sea Islands everything pro or hi tech has to be sent away for repair and its a long wait, I just sent some parts to an LED screen I have for repair and return in China and got stung for import duty, cant argue with them either. Apparently there is export duty, So for repair there could be extra cost for import and export duty, It cant be right

 

[starcentral]

without having to read 50 pages, what's the status of the s35 kineraw? Is it shipping, if not is there ETA? website is pretty vague, actually the "buy" page doesn't even load for me.

 

[Postmaster]

About 20 units are in the wild now. Phil Arntz and Matthew Allard worked with one for a week - they told me "everything about the camera is great apart from very nasty rolling shutter" - worse than 5D.
That's a pity, I was really looking forward to it - must have a hands on, that might be a dealbreaker for me.

 

[fijimagnum]

We want to hear some hands on feedback. ( "everything about the camera is great apart from very nasty rolling shutter" - worse than 5D.) Please tell us more. There are a couple camera options for hi DR. Just want to make sure we get the best for the $$.

 

[robster180]

Is this camera relevant at this moment in time with the BT RED One available at such a great price?