Chinese 2K RAW S35 Cinema Camera, 8000 dollars
- Thread starter HHL
- Start date
Dan Hudgins
Well-known member
You should be able to email them at,
http://www.Kinefinity.com
and
http://www.KineRAW.com
To ask about shipment dates.
Its my understanding that they are working very hard on making several S35 for field testing now and hope to have those out before long, most of chatter has been about various issues with the Cineform (tm) and color matching issues (connecting to various commercial DI systems). As far as I can tell they are making progress.
The S16 is mostly different from the S35 by its sensor board, being CDD and global shutter. They seem to be trying to get the S35 shippable first, but you can ask them about the status of the S16 if you are interested as that tells them the ratio of S35 to S16 to S8 users they might expect etc.
paulears
Veteran
If the Chinese take the same path as the Japanese (I remember Jap crap being the customer comment when presented with Sony, Sanyo and Matsushita in the 70s) then they have the engineering and infrastructure to be a major force. They can work quickly and the only thing they don't have really is a foothold in each continent. Once some of their companies start warehousing and service centres here, then they can make big inroads. The undercurrent here, if nobodies noticed, is that the feature set is what's making people want the product - there's a demand for something good at a low price, and I don't doubt a few people will become very worried if the Chinese go into the professional area. After all, we've put up with pretty inflated prices - and put up with what is essentially fixed pricing on pro gear for too long. We're happy to buy foreign, so does the source country matter that much if the product is good?
Dan Hudgins
Well-known member
Thanks for the complements, the uncompressed AVI frames look better I think (almost double the detail and less plastic skin maybe in some tests not published yet if you get very close to the 1920 wide monitor, and remember the originals are 2.5K so there should be more detail than the 1920 wide show as there is some loss from the reduction), but its hard to email that size file, I can send you a few frames as BMP or if you ask TIF so you can see how much better the uncompressed images look. The banding in the sky of the compressed version pains me as its what the True RAW is meant to avoid.
Those are just some experiments with my 'film look' processing, and I did run the shots through my temporal noise reduction, which unlike NeatVideo (tm), does not alter the images much other than to reduce noise (its 16bit processing tone depth and a free part of my de-Bayer program, I would use it on almost all shots as it does not cause artifacts much when adjusted right). It works better on static camera shots, which is OK for the type of film I have planed. When the camera is in motion you don't see noise as much anyway because it gets mixed with motion blur. The S8p supports 48 and 72fps (2x and 3x 24fps) for hand held to reduce rolling shutter issues, I need to test that yet, looking on the viewfinder it seems to work.
One reason it looks clean is the almost 1.5x oversample, ARRI ALEXA (tm) uses 2880 wide pixel area for 1920 results, that vimeo video was 2592 for 1920 so its only 288 pixels less than ARRI ALEXA (tm) but the price of the camera is meant to be a small fraction, and you get open DNG 100% uncompressed frames that can be processed an various programs. I was shooting at 103MB per second in the camera to its SSD, then dumping the shots in the camera to a 500MB notebook size harddrive, if I had two SSD I could also swap and dump on a notebook, but I find it easier to dump while packing the camera to a new setup and such to avoid packing a notebook around all the time. There is an in camera review that you can use to playback delete bad takes, or select takes to dump for backup, or to backup all the takes on the second drive slot. You could use SSD in both slots and speed up backing up that way as well, like if you wanted to make two backups of each shot in the field.
I have a bunch of other shots, some of which are for a short film I hope to post on vimeo as well, but there were some underexposure issues because of a firmware issue that has been fixed, and some lens issues with soft corners, so I need to sift through what I have shot and re-shoot some things and then maybe I can post some more examples...
Those are just some experiments with my 'film look' processing, and I did run the shots through my temporal noise reduction, which unlike NeatVideo (tm), does not alter the images much other than to reduce noise (its 16bit processing tone depth and a free part of my de-Bayer program, I would use it on almost all shots as it does not cause artifacts much when adjusted right). It works better on static camera shots, which is OK for the type of film I have planed. When the camera is in motion you don't see noise as much anyway because it gets mixed with motion blur. The S8p supports 48 and 72fps (2x and 3x 24fps) for hand held to reduce rolling shutter issues, I need to test that yet, looking on the viewfinder it seems to work.
One reason it looks clean is the almost 1.5x oversample, ARRI ALEXA (tm) uses 2880 wide pixel area for 1920 results, that vimeo video was 2592 for 1920 so its only 288 pixels less than ARRI ALEXA (tm) but the price of the camera is meant to be a small fraction, and you get open DNG 100% uncompressed frames that can be processed an various programs. I was shooting at 103MB per second in the camera to its SSD, then dumping the shots in the camera to a 500MB notebook size harddrive, if I had two SSD I could also swap and dump on a notebook, but I find it easier to dump while packing the camera to a new setup and such to avoid packing a notebook around all the time. There is an in camera review that you can use to playback delete bad takes, or select takes to dump for backup, or to backup all the takes on the second drive slot. You could use SSD in both slots and speed up backing up that way as well, like if you wanted to make two backups of each shot in the field.
I have a bunch of other shots, some of which are for a short film I hope to post on vimeo as well, but there were some underexposure issues because of a firmware issue that has been fixed, and some lens issues with soft corners, so I need to sift through what I have shot and re-shoot some things and then maybe I can post some more examples...
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Dan Hudgins
Well-known member
They asked me if I could do some service for them (I have experience with electronic and camera repair) as they feel the need for not having to ship the cameras both ways because of the cost for air shipping.
But the laws about doing that in California are too much for me to deal with. They will probably try to have some field offices at some point but getting the cameras pulled together seems to me to be the first task...
But the laws about doing that in California are too much for me to deal with. They will probably try to have some field offices at some point but getting the cameras pulled together seems to me to be the first task...
Simon Shasha
Well-known member
Hey Dan, any updates to share? 
Simon Shasha
Well-known member
Got an e-mail today from Kinefinity with the following info in regards to the KineRAW-S35:
1. KineRAW S35 pricing is around USD 6K~8K as net price.
2. It will be launched in China Mainland at first in coming April. For other countries, it comes a little bit late, maybe later in 2012.
3. Sample footage and results will come from January.
1. KineRAW S35 pricing is around USD 6K~8K as net price.
2. It will be launched in China Mainland at first in coming April. For other countries, it comes a little bit late, maybe later in 2012.
3. Sample footage and results will come from January.
Thanks for the update! Great news!
@Dan
Thanks for all of your updates. We're thrilled to have your input here on DVXUser! Cheers!
Dan Hudgins
Well-known member
New footage from KineRAW-S8p (tm) on Vimeo, lens test reel #B1
New footage from KineRAW-S8p (tm) on Vimeo, lens test reel #B1
I uploaded the second lens test demo reel, #B1 (B1B), for the Kine-RAW-S8p (tm), here is the link,
I'm working on the third reel today, its the 1828x1556x12bit@24fps anamorphic lens "Panavision" (tm), Cineon (tm), Celco (tm), mode for anamorphic format like used in 35mm wide screen movies. I wrote a new command in my de-Bayer program DANCINEC.EXE (tm) to copy the DNG frames from the SHOTS folder that holds the shots in the camera to my program's edit structure for processing. That should make things more automated, and then the workprint can be made easier. I have it copy the in camera WAV recording for the in camera audio to my programs audio track folders T001 and T002 to automate that step as well and keep things from getting lost or mixed up. So doing these reels helps me see where there are bumps in the workflow that some more code can smooth over etc.
The player may not show if you are not signed in, so you can try this link,
http://vimeo.com/35148088
New footage from KineRAW-S8p (tm) on Vimeo, lens test reel #B1
I uploaded the second lens test demo reel, #B1 (B1B), for the Kine-RAW-S8p (tm), here is the link,
I'm working on the third reel today, its the 1828x1556x12bit@24fps anamorphic lens "Panavision" (tm), Cineon (tm), Celco (tm), mode for anamorphic format like used in 35mm wide screen movies. I wrote a new command in my de-Bayer program DANCINEC.EXE (tm) to copy the DNG frames from the SHOTS folder that holds the shots in the camera to my program's edit structure for processing. That should make things more automated, and then the workprint can be made easier. I have it copy the in camera WAV recording for the in camera audio to my programs audio track folders T001 and T002 to automate that step as well and keep things from getting lost or mixed up. So doing these reels helps me see where there are bumps in the workflow that some more code can smooth over etc.
The player may not show if you are not signed in, so you can try this link,
http://vimeo.com/35148088
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Awesome! Thanks for keeping us in the loop! Oh and do you have any idea what they were going price the s16 CCD cam at?
Dan Hudgins
Well-known member
KineRAW (tm) prices.
KineRAW (tm) prices.
About the prices, last I heard the S16 was half the S35 and the S8 was one forth the S35 about so that might work out,
S35 = 8000 to 6000?
S16 = 4000 to 3000?
S8 = 2000 to 1500?
But who know what the RMB to $ exchange rates could be by the end of 2012, as the dollar falls the prices would need to be adjusted I might think?
I forgot to use the right tags to show the player before, here is the player showing,
I edited the previous post, but in case people don't see that change I put here also.
Since the link does not show the player unless I am signed in, here is the non player link,
http://vimeo.com/35148088
KineRAW (tm) prices.
About the prices, last I heard the S16 was half the S35 and the S8 was one forth the S35 about so that might work out,
S35 = 8000 to 6000?
S16 = 4000 to 3000?
S8 = 2000 to 1500?
But who know what the RMB to $ exchange rates could be by the end of 2012, as the dollar falls the prices would need to be adjusted I might think?
I forgot to use the right tags to show the player before, here is the player showing,
I edited the previous post, but in case people don't see that change I put here also.
Since the link does not show the player unless I am signed in, here is the non player link,
http://vimeo.com/35148088
Last edited:
Ted Ramasola
Veteran
Dan,
If you're still shooting the 3rd reel, would you include some pans and tilts. Even a fast pan, or whip pan even, to see how the sensor readout handles this in comparison with cmos rolling shutter.
I notice most your test shots are locked down so maybe some camera movement would be a nice way to show what these cameras are capable of.
Thanks,
If you're still shooting the 3rd reel, would you include some pans and tilts. Even a fast pan, or whip pan even, to see how the sensor readout handles this in comparison with cmos rolling shutter.
I notice most your test shots are locked down so maybe some camera movement would be a nice way to show what these cameras are capable of.
Thanks,
Dan Hudgins
Well-known member
Hi Ted,
The current sensor in the KineRAW-S8p (tm) is CMOS and has rolling shutter. There are 48 and 72 fps shooting modes to reduce skew and jell-o effect, but those are not currently in the 2:1 squeeze ratio, although the number of pixels should allow those additional modes to be used. I could use the flat 2.35:1 48 and 72 fps modes and skip print those to 24, it would cut the skew by 1/2 and 1/3 that way.
There is a way to upgrade the sensor and install a mechanical shutter to eliminate the rolling shutter skew and jell-o altogether, but they decided not to install a mechanical shutter because of cost I guess. I have been talking to them about using the global reset for three years so far, as well as having an off switch for the auto-slate Pizeo beeper, but so far no luck. You can talk to them about it. I don't know if they think it might cut sales of the higher priced S16, but I don't think it would as its a different price range and user. In my mind if you can make something work right, and the cost is not too out of line, then do it.
For my own projects, the rolling shutter is less of an issue than the block artifacts and mosquito noise and limited 8bit grading range before histogram gaps of HDSLR cameras.
My basic choice for a project I would like to do are:
1) 35mm film, that is hard to manage for shooting in a remote place with the need to have a lab and then sending processed rolls back into the USA has a high postage cost and other problems. And the cost being over $20000 probably.
2) Use an HDSLR. That is not ideal for a 2.35:1 project since a 1.33 anamorphic is needed or there is a crop, and you get the limited post grading range and compression artifacts. It has the advantage that if the camera breaks you can get another one cheep, and the file size is small so you can mail back footage at low cost and do more backups.
3) Use something like the KineRAW-S8p (tm), it has full uncompressed 12bit data for good grading range, and zero compression artifacts, you can also do the black calibration before or after the shots are made, even the next day or later if needed. The cost of mailing back the footage is lower than 35mm film, but more than the HDSLR because of the high data rate.
For the quality I'm looking for on the movie theater screen the KineRAW-S8p (tm) seems to have the best balance between lack of compression artifacts and ease of use, as doing a 35mm DI requires manual spotting or at least checking of over 125000 frames. Dust is a real problem with 35mm negative cutting at home, and I can't afford to have that done by a professional. I have some some dust busting code in development, but you still need to check every frame scan if you shoot film. I don't see HDSLR as looking enough like film to pass well, maybe with some processing it can but its still a compromise from what I would like it to look like in the finished result.
Your needs may be different. If they change their mind and put the mechanical shutter back into the design, maybe that will be a plus for your needs, if not you can look at other options like the KineRAW-S16 (tm) or Acam dII (tm), perhaps?
I did a slow pan already for the anamorphic reel, it looks alright as far as I can tell.
I'm not good with a friction head, we have a geared cable head that it seems was used on the technicolor camera at some time in the past, its very large and heavy, so I would need help putting it on the strong mitchell top metal legs, but it has a gear box in the center of the crank so you can pan at various rates with it for the same turns per minute on the hand wheel.
You should note that the maximum pan rates for 2.5K images are slower than for the older tables made for 35mm shooting, as you don't want to pan faster than one pixel per frame or the motion blur will degrade the resolution. Its best to keep the shutter between 144 and 288 degrees with the rolling shutter as like motion picture cameras small angles increase picket fencing. For follow camera on the subject, the subject will skew less than the background, so I don't know what anti skew plug-ins would do to resolve that?
I've developed my software for my own use, and its on my web site for others to use if they want to beta-test it with some CinemaDNG recording camera. I'm not involved with sales, and don't have final say over all the camera designs or dates for shipment.
Edit: I should add that there are some other sensor choices for the production S8 cameras, so the rolling shutter issue may be reduced or eliminated in the production camera depending on how much they are willing to improve the camera over what the prototype does.
The current sensor in the KineRAW-S8p (tm) is CMOS and has rolling shutter. There are 48 and 72 fps shooting modes to reduce skew and jell-o effect, but those are not currently in the 2:1 squeeze ratio, although the number of pixels should allow those additional modes to be used. I could use the flat 2.35:1 48 and 72 fps modes and skip print those to 24, it would cut the skew by 1/2 and 1/3 that way.
There is a way to upgrade the sensor and install a mechanical shutter to eliminate the rolling shutter skew and jell-o altogether, but they decided not to install a mechanical shutter because of cost I guess. I have been talking to them about using the global reset for three years so far, as well as having an off switch for the auto-slate Pizeo beeper, but so far no luck. You can talk to them about it. I don't know if they think it might cut sales of the higher priced S16, but I don't think it would as its a different price range and user. In my mind if you can make something work right, and the cost is not too out of line, then do it.
For my own projects, the rolling shutter is less of an issue than the block artifacts and mosquito noise and limited 8bit grading range before histogram gaps of HDSLR cameras.
My basic choice for a project I would like to do are:
1) 35mm film, that is hard to manage for shooting in a remote place with the need to have a lab and then sending processed rolls back into the USA has a high postage cost and other problems. And the cost being over $20000 probably.
2) Use an HDSLR. That is not ideal for a 2.35:1 project since a 1.33 anamorphic is needed or there is a crop, and you get the limited post grading range and compression artifacts. It has the advantage that if the camera breaks you can get another one cheep, and the file size is small so you can mail back footage at low cost and do more backups.
3) Use something like the KineRAW-S8p (tm), it has full uncompressed 12bit data for good grading range, and zero compression artifacts, you can also do the black calibration before or after the shots are made, even the next day or later if needed. The cost of mailing back the footage is lower than 35mm film, but more than the HDSLR because of the high data rate.
For the quality I'm looking for on the movie theater screen the KineRAW-S8p (tm) seems to have the best balance between lack of compression artifacts and ease of use, as doing a 35mm DI requires manual spotting or at least checking of over 125000 frames. Dust is a real problem with 35mm negative cutting at home, and I can't afford to have that done by a professional. I have some some dust busting code in development, but you still need to check every frame scan if you shoot film. I don't see HDSLR as looking enough like film to pass well, maybe with some processing it can but its still a compromise from what I would like it to look like in the finished result.
Your needs may be different. If they change their mind and put the mechanical shutter back into the design, maybe that will be a plus for your needs, if not you can look at other options like the KineRAW-S16 (tm) or Acam dII (tm), perhaps?
I did a slow pan already for the anamorphic reel, it looks alright as far as I can tell.
I'm not good with a friction head, we have a geared cable head that it seems was used on the technicolor camera at some time in the past, its very large and heavy, so I would need help putting it on the strong mitchell top metal legs, but it has a gear box in the center of the crank so you can pan at various rates with it for the same turns per minute on the hand wheel.
You should note that the maximum pan rates for 2.5K images are slower than for the older tables made for 35mm shooting, as you don't want to pan faster than one pixel per frame or the motion blur will degrade the resolution. Its best to keep the shutter between 144 and 288 degrees with the rolling shutter as like motion picture cameras small angles increase picket fencing. For follow camera on the subject, the subject will skew less than the background, so I don't know what anti skew plug-ins would do to resolve that?
I've developed my software for my own use, and its on my web site for others to use if they want to beta-test it with some CinemaDNG recording camera. I'm not involved with sales, and don't have final say over all the camera designs or dates for shipment.
Edit: I should add that there are some other sensor choices for the production S8 cameras, so the rolling shutter issue may be reduced or eliminated in the production camera depending on how much they are willing to improve the camera over what the prototype does.
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It's too early to say I'm certain (so save some time and please don't post and say that we'll see when it's released and we get to see their delivery and quality etc...I know, I know, I know....)
That said.....DANG! At those prices, oooooo baby! I'm not holding my breath, but I am crossing my fingers!
BTW, FYI, their sales department responded kindly to my inquiry about their timing and product. A good sign....but I'll wait to see what they deliver to the market. Cheers! Thanks Dan!
Thanks for shooting that and taking time to share it with us here!
VERY interesting images indeed! ps....I'll IM you my email! I'd like some uncompressed images (as offered on Vimeo) FOR SURE!!! Cheers!
Dan Hudgins
Well-known member
Thanks for the comments. I'm sending the frames used to make the videos to the people that asked, its best to email me directly at tempnulbox (at) yahoo (dot) com because I don't check my IM/PM on this site often. Vimeo sends me notices so I know when I get one there.
If you email me put 'DVXuser uncompressed frame request", and mention which video B1 or A2 or both you want frames from.
I work-printed the anamorphic shots we have made so far and burned in the date+TOD and SMPTE time code from the camera so my Brother can do an off-line edit on his computer. He's giving me the head and tail time code so I can know which shots to grade and the range of frames to process. It will be a few more weeks before we get the filler shots shot and processed and then the final sound mix. We shot sync sound using the in camera auto-slate beep using a mini-disk and two plug in power microphones. The audio seems to work from the playback of the AVI I made as workprint, I cleaned up the sound in Magix deLuxe (tm) before putting it into my programs audio tracks for the mix down to put into the AVI. The AVI was made from 1280x720 letterboxed BMP and the stereo WAV mixdown 48000 samples per second 16bit.
The firmware has been updated in the KineRAW-S8p (tm) and it now supports 200% zoom and automatic slate information. There is a popup menu you can set the scene and take numbers as well as camera, unit, and other slate information. The take numbers automatically count if you don't change the scene and that works with the head and tail auto-slate beeps for automatic slating. My de-Bayer program can burn in the slate information on the head and tail slate beeps, its 1000Hz on the head and 2000Hz on the tail I think, so you can tell them apart. The reason for both is that it gives you two points to use in case you work on the sound outside my programs and need to do an analog transfer, you can then re-sample the length of the audio clip to get the length to match the image frames again before you do the mix down so you get frame accurate sync, if you only have a head slate beep, you cannot tell how much the crystals on various equipment drift for long takes, the 60GB SSD will record like 9 minute takes, so you don't want to get a frame out after bumping sound around here and there... more so if you use stream video editing software for looping and such (ADR).
If you have questions about pricing please contact Kinefinity (tm) directly, as I don't have to do with sales, I mostly just supporting their cameras in my free de-Bayer program development, and helping a bit with making some look files for their camera's viewfinder that calibrate to my de-Bayer program and such.
If you email me put 'DVXuser uncompressed frame request", and mention which video B1 or A2 or both you want frames from.
I work-printed the anamorphic shots we have made so far and burned in the date+TOD and SMPTE time code from the camera so my Brother can do an off-line edit on his computer. He's giving me the head and tail time code so I can know which shots to grade and the range of frames to process. It will be a few more weeks before we get the filler shots shot and processed and then the final sound mix. We shot sync sound using the in camera auto-slate beep using a mini-disk and two plug in power microphones. The audio seems to work from the playback of the AVI I made as workprint, I cleaned up the sound in Magix deLuxe (tm) before putting it into my programs audio tracks for the mix down to put into the AVI. The AVI was made from 1280x720 letterboxed BMP and the stereo WAV mixdown 48000 samples per second 16bit.
The firmware has been updated in the KineRAW-S8p (tm) and it now supports 200% zoom and automatic slate information. There is a popup menu you can set the scene and take numbers as well as camera, unit, and other slate information. The take numbers automatically count if you don't change the scene and that works with the head and tail auto-slate beeps for automatic slating. My de-Bayer program can burn in the slate information on the head and tail slate beeps, its 1000Hz on the head and 2000Hz on the tail I think, so you can tell them apart. The reason for both is that it gives you two points to use in case you work on the sound outside my programs and need to do an analog transfer, you can then re-sample the length of the audio clip to get the length to match the image frames again before you do the mix down so you get frame accurate sync, if you only have a head slate beep, you cannot tell how much the crystals on various equipment drift for long takes, the 60GB SSD will record like 9 minute takes, so you don't want to get a frame out after bumping sound around here and there... more so if you use stream video editing software for looping and such (ADR).
If you have questions about pricing please contact Kinefinity (tm) directly, as I don't have to do with sales, I mostly just supporting their cameras in my free de-Bayer program development, and helping a bit with making some look files for their camera's viewfinder that calibrate to my de-Bayer program and such.
Dan Hudgins
Well-known member
If or When?
If or When?
If you read back over the comments above and the ones I have made on my Vimeo pages, you should get a feel for that issue.
I'm not involved in sales, I am a software developer that has some support for the prototype KineRAW-S8p (tm) in a free de-Bayer program that is in "Beta-Test" on my web site now, I am working on v0.06.
Before you make any plans for purchase you should work out what workflow you will be using I would think, as that can impact the image quality.
If you have sales questions you should contact Kinefinity (tm) directly.
Questions about my programs are best answered by direct email, if you email me be sure to put 'DVXuser software support question' in the email subject line so I know its not junk, my email is on the top of each page at my web site.
Why are you interested in purchasing the camera? And which model? What is your target end use, 35mm film print, DCP projection, Blu-Ray, DVD, web use?
If or When?
If you read back over the comments above and the ones I have made on my Vimeo pages, you should get a feel for that issue.
I'm not involved in sales, I am a software developer that has some support for the prototype KineRAW-S8p (tm) in a free de-Bayer program that is in "Beta-Test" on my web site now, I am working on v0.06.
Before you make any plans for purchase you should work out what workflow you will be using I would think, as that can impact the image quality.
If you have sales questions you should contact Kinefinity (tm) directly.
Questions about my programs are best answered by direct email, if you email me be sure to put 'DVXuser software support question' in the email subject line so I know its not junk, my email is on the top of each page at my web site.
Why are you interested in purchasing the camera? And which model? What is your target end use, 35mm film print, DCP projection, Blu-Ray, DVD, web use?
They said s35 model will out before end of 2012 for the US market. They are releasing beta models in April in mainland China. It looks like they have to jump through some FCC hoops before they can sell to the masses so they can't give any specific date.
I emailed them letting them know about my interest and they were very quick to respond. Shoot em an email and they'll get back to you real fast.