Che

I'm not dispelling what you are saying; I've never been there.

At one time; back in the day; prior events; in the past; what they were lead to believe.....

Was that things would be different; going from a DICTATORSHIP to a MARXIST SOCIALIST government. Sure; in theory it sounds good.

I suppose going from having my hand cut off to just 3 of my fingers is a better option; still sucks though.

Again; not sure of your point other than "The people thought is sounded like a good idea..."

Aside from that point which we all probally agree on:

YEah, the people of Germany thought the NAZI party were pretty cool at first.....

Back to CHE...

I'm not sure he was such a cool guy; yes the people that lived in the 60's THOUGHT he was cool but now we all know the reality..

So..............?

The topic is; why are people running around wearing his T Shirts? Should I run out and buy a Lenin T Shirt?
 
He was a man who blindly acted on his ideals. Believing that the path was not important, merely the result. He was perhaps over eduacted, and way too sheltered. One would think traveling on a motorcycle through south america would give you a great sense of realism. BUt that was his trip to Disney World.
 
To answer your question John, I think it is a reference to fighting for what you believe in. But it is easier to buy the tshirt, than do a bit of reading.
 
Sometimes I like Soderbergh, sometimes I don't. I really liked "The Motorcycle Diaries", but that was really about Ernesto before he became Che. It was basically a road trip movie with beautiful photography.

“. . . people who have only read about communism point to parallels between this and that, always quick to point out how capitalism isn't any better.”
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Good post XCheck. It’s similar to when people call anyone who voices political dissent in America a communist or a commie. It reminds me of a joke I heard in a movie – don’t remember the name of the movie but Javier Bardem was in it, so I think it must have been Spanish – anyway, the joke is that two old comrades from the old Soviet regime are chatting after the fall of communism. One of them says, “Everything they told us about communism was a lie.” His comrade nods and replies, “Yeah. Unfortunately, everything they told us about capitalism turned out to be true.”

It’s not the funniest joke, but it makes a decent point that there is no such thing as a perfect political system.

I’ll go see the Che movie, but I’m not expecting anything too insightful from it. Maybe I’ll be wrong.

Cheers,

Josh
 
This is the part I understand as 'The symbology' of...

The idea of 'Fighting for what you believe in..."

But it's because they're dumbasses, that's why. It's the same people who wear a ginat ANARCHY synbol on their jacket's cause they don;t understand what it really encompasses.
 
Che was a butcher. It was he who organized the Cuban death camps, and it was he who pushed toward dictatorship, when some of his cohorts in Castro's revolution were pushing for true democracy.
 
:thumbsup: Agreed.

As for the 'martyr', or the 'myth oc Che'... when I was still behind the iron curtain, a lot of people who were no communists but were on the left would defend Marx. In fact, Engels was probably the most respected from the 'socialist holy trinity'. The reason? Their highly edited writing was an antidote to the reality of everyday life. So people resorted to saying 'they meant it well, but...'.

Ironically, it was only AFTER I left that regime, and I could read what Marx REALLY wrote that was never included in our carefuly edited school textbooks, when I started to finally understand how perverse the idea of communism is. Yes, Marx wrote alot of insightful stuff (if not that original - most of his 'philosophy' was a rip-off from Hegel and others). But he also wrote the Communist Manifesto - and that little book disqualifies everything else he wrote before and after.

So, I am sure a lot of people who love Che do so because they somehow made themselves belive that if Che was leading the revolution, things would be different. Not likely.
 
As was implied above, Che is popular because he's dead, and died early enough that people can make up anything they want about him. Just like Lenin didn't live long enough to become Stalin, Che didn't live long enough to become Fidel.

Met lots of friendly people in Cuba? No doubt. I met tons of friendly people in East Germany, too. Think they didn't run westward when they got the chance? Boy howdy!

Oh. As for the film? Mandy Patinkin should play him.

Again. :grin:
 
I recently met a girl from Iran. She is super-friendly (no, you dirty bastards, not the way you think! :thumbsup: ). She is also a refugee.

The political system of any country in the world and the friendliness of its people are orthogonal.

This is to say: I agree with GenJerDan.
 
I strongly disagree with your idea that Mandy Patinkin should be cast as Che, GenJerDan. Obviously the role should go to Danny DeVito. :laugh:
 
Josh_Boelter said:
I strongly disagree with your idea that Mandy Patinkin should be cast as Che, GenJerDan. Obviously the role should go to Danny DeVito. :laugh:
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Now THAT would be Che I could be friend with! :thumbsup:
 
John I actually find myself agreeing with most of what you're saying for once. However, I;d like to add that there is nothing wrong with the communist idealogy, or any idealogy in theory. I mean capitalism has huge pitfalls, and so does communism. It's whatever you choose for yourself. Che is portrayed as iconic figure of a revolution that i think was a necessary evil - however no justification can be made for the lives he took. It can't be arugued that taking someones life is a lesser evil than our leaders in the so called 'free world' who are doing the same. Take Palestine for example their struggle for self determination and justice is correct - however the process in which they're doing it is wrong. So what i'm saying is this - Che had a legitimate struggle for justice in south america - it was apt for the time however the methodology that he executed was wrong. I think it's the right time for this movie with everything that is going on the world. We talk about a fight between good and evil - who's good, who's evil? Is there such a thing as MORAL EQUIVALENCE - unlike what our neo-con politicians say? I don't know.
 
Josh_Boelter said:
I strongly disagree with your idea that Mandy Patinkin should be cast as Che, GenJerDan. Obviously the role should go to Danny DeVito. :laugh:
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But...but...we're all shirtless now!
 
GenJerDan said:
But...but...we're all shirtless now!
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LOL :grin:

I think it's important to remember that the previous Cuban government under Batista was an incredibly corrupt organization (some say it was installed by the US, not sure of the accuracy of that). Not to say that Cuba today isn't, but that's certainly a factor in Che's hero image.

Any revolution or war will be bloody and unjust, but somehow at the end society decides that some people are heros and some are villains...that's why George Washington is a hero even though he was a slave owner.

You can find good and bad in any historical figure. The draw of Che is that he brought down a corrupt dictatorship and died fighting for his ideals. The CIA was somehow involved in his death and that doesn't hurt his martyr status in South America. In recent years, the Cuban Revolution was really the only successful one in North America. Thus for revolutionary types, Che is the man who actually did it...and thus the legend spreads.

I'm not defending Che, just trying to understand him like the rest of you. And I agree that his image is over used by people who don't understand it. Hell, if you really think about it, what would a true Socialist say about selling t-shirts, wallets, pins, etc. with his image on it? I bet he rolls over in his grave every time someone buys a shirt...

Looking forward to the movie though... :beer:
 
Yas Kassana

I think there is plenty wrong with Communistic ideology; just like there is plenty wrong with a dictatorship or a monarchy. Having an ideology does not make it a noble cause does it? Anyone can have an ideology, but that does not make it ideal?

As mentioned above; people are quick to point out the shortcomings and pitfalls of a democracy but its the best one we have I think.

---

Che did help bring down a corrupt dictatorship and in turn helped install another corrupt socialist state. That's the part I have issue with; it's not like he helped create a 'better Cuba'.

What does Washington being a slave owner have to do with him being a hero or not? (I'm not baiting; I didn't understand the merit or correlation to this statement. ? ) Although I cannot condone slave ownership, it was the 1700's and I think moot?

In the long run; I can strip it down to the bare bones and appreciate someone fighting and dying for a cause they believe in. It'd just be better to accept if it was a noble cause

Nevertheless; I love Benicio. I smell an oscar.
 
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