Charing by the project...

[dantewaters]

SO I have been with a new client about 4months now...

Recently I gave him a paper with a break down of what I will be charging here on out:

Motion Graphic & Graphic Design 4 Days
$130 and up per day max 5hrs


Cinematography 3 days Max
$175 and up per day max 5hrs


Editing & DVD Authoring 2 days Max
$250 and up per day max 5hrs


Initially we were doing projects on an hourly basis or rather for weekly pay. However as time progressed I lowered my hours and have been showing up 5hrs a day for 3 days tops.

The issue is one day he'll do graphic work, and the next day video work, for example this week we did some shooting and now today he wants to go back
and do some motion graphics for a different project.

I don't know seems I just need to start saying no no no lets focus on this... Or maybe you guys have a different method.

Another issue is at the end of the week he just sits a his desk and cuts a check,
and my thing is ok this is what you think it's worth, based on how often you saw me and the quality of work, but this is what I charge. So suggestions everyone?

 

[dantewaters]

bump

 

[Rodney V. Smith]

get a contract that details the work involved and what you charge for it. then invoice him and get him to write a check for that amount that includes all of the work done.

Also set up a timeline for how the project needs to go forward and what needs to be handled at certain times. GOing all over the place is just going to set you spinning your wheels and (important that you show him this) cost him more.

 

[Mattykins]

I can't make heads or tails of your post...but from what I gather - he is cutting the check based on the prices you gave him, and you think you deserve more? Or he isn't paying the price?

If he isn't paying the cost you gave. Hold the projects and explain the invoice. (Assuming you invoiced him). If you didn't sign a contract, its all up in the air. And you are out of luck. If you have it on paper, then that's exactly what needs to be followed. Hold it.

If you think you deserve more, you successfully undersold yourself and are again, out of luck.

If he is all over the board and you work for him. Then you are working for him. If it's too much trouble, quit. Or drop the client. I can't tell if you are a production house or you work in an office with this guy. If that is what he wants to do, you have to do it. Explain to him these projects won't get done in a timely fashion here, and he is wasting money. Best you can do there.

 

[dantewaters]

I can't make heads or tails of your post...

Mattykins,

What I listed above is what I am asking him to pay now. In the beginning nothing was done on paper, but I told him non of your projects will exceed $500 price, simply because I would only do one section per week I.E. (Cinematography or Editing).

He heard but clearly wasn't listening, he then started to cut the check based on how long I was there or how much he felt it was worth. Then I said that's not working because I can never tell how much I am making, nor was it the price I required for my time and work.

So I handed him the above pricing, and he looked it over. I now show him
a break down of the week and show him his total. Last time instead of paying $435.00 he paid $400.00 I mean $35 is nothing, but come on the principle stands be fair. I really feel we started off on the wrong foot, and I also feels he thinks I am good, but don't feel I deserve fair price.

 

[x002657]

Things you won't like reading,

Things you won't like reading,

and sincerely not to be harsh, but as I see it,

Mattykins,

What I listed above is what I am asking him to pay now.

So you "changed horses in mid-stream". Early on, you set a precedent, which it seems as if he's now following, at least to the extent that he understood the original arrangement.

In the beginning nothing was done on paper, but I told him non of your projects will exceed $500 price, simply because I would only do one section per week I.E. (Cinematography or Editing).

That started you off on the wrong foot. It seems he doesn't understand the difference between Cinematography and Editing. "I said/you said" situations lead to nothing but headaches. Trying to get "on track" now could easily give him the perception that he's suddenly paying/being charged more for something he's received up til now at a lower price.

He heard but clearly wasn't listening, he then started to cut the check based on how long I was there or how much he felt it was worth. Then I said that's not working because I can never tell how much I am making, nor was it the price I required for my time and work.

Do you mean you can never plan or rely on how much you're making? I can sympathize, but frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if he thinks that your need for regular payments or having a consistent or reliable income stream are not his concern.

So I handed him the above pricing, and he looked it over. I now show him
a break down of the week and show him his total. Last time instead of paying $435.00 he paid $400.00 I mean $35 is nothing, but come on the principle stands be fair. I really feel we started off on the wrong foot, and I also feels he thinks I am good, but don't feel I deserve fair price.

So, in effect, you're allowing him to take what is nearly a 10% discount. If your work is up to par for the market, then he's found a real bargain in you.

Not sure what advice to offer, or if there's even a way to iron this out amicably, other than to try to explain how he's not paying you for the separate services you're providing. (Which, BTW, is different from your original per-project fee, which he also seems to have misunderstood).

Try providing him with a rate schedule (something you appear to have already done without him grasping the meaning) and invoicing him with a "real" invoice; something that is "officially" an accounting document.

If you can't get him to agree to pay the "correct" price, then you may have to seek out other work, and as that becomes available, you must become "less available", giving him the opportunity to seek out work similar to yours at that discounted price and see what he gets for that.

I could be wrong, but from your post, I get the sense you're looking at this more as an employer/employee relationship, (e.g. as if he should "care" about you getting fairly compensated for your contribution to his business or getting proper pay for a proper job), than as a business-to-business one. All your dealings with all clients must be from a business-to-business perspective.

If you didn't protest his first underpayment and iron it out then, you may have little choice but to continue the per-project approach and chalk it up to lessons learned, or keep trying to renegotiate the terms.

Anyway, that's how I perceive it from the outside.

Good luck.

 

[dantewaters]

update

update

x002657[/URL]]and sincerely not to be harsh, but as I see it,

I could be wrong, but from your post, I get the sense you're looking at this more as an employer/employee relationship, (e.g. as if he should "care" about you getting fairly compensated for your contribution to his business or getting proper pay for a proper job), than as a business-to-business one. All your dealings with all clients must be from a business-to-business perspective.

If you didn't protest his first underpayment and iron it out then, you may have little choice but to continue the per-project approach and chalk it up to lessons learned, or keep trying to renegotiate the terms.

Anyway, that's how I perceive it from the outside.

Good luck.

Well the main thing is I don't want to work for weekly pay, because then he can work me like a horse,
and I need to make at least making $600 - $700 a week for what I do which I know he wont pay,
and at the end of the day he will want full 8hr days.

So instead I was told by a friend to charge a flat rate for the day $350
video recording (Standing behind a camera making adjustments).

$450 a day for editing (max of 8hrs after that is extra)

So what I did for him was the same thing... but I gave him a bit of a discount as you pointed out.
I do agree that all my transactions should be a business to business ones and not employer to employee.

I feel he understands that I wasn't happy with the money, but ultimately he sees
me as some young kid with knowledge. Regardless if that is true the level of work
he's getting is worth a lot more than what he's paying.
He may never get that until I change hours or move on, but at this point I feel my options are to save,
and stop giving him more than what he deserves.

For example I got him to buy after effects so that we can use it, but at these rate I wont do any green screen or keying,
I will just keep it simple until my value goes up, or until I get paid fairly.

 

[Mattykins]

but at these rate I wont do any green screen or keying,

Then what do you use it for? Basically I think you need to learn, embrace, and love the idea of a written services rendered contract. Every services rendered contract I have sent out is upwards of 4 pages even if its a basic deal...like a concept sketch.

The contract covers almost anything that would come up. Early termination, invoices, payment, what is expected and the rights of both my company and undersigned. Basically if you are non-contracted, he can do whatever he really wants to do. If he feels like you worked enough for 400 dollars and writes the check. Or buys After Effects and you refuse to use it because you don't feel you aren't getting paid enough, then he logically doesn't pay you enough because he doesn't feel you are working enough.

It sounds like you tried to put him on a chain. But he is still in control and very rightly so. Without you invoicing him, the transaction doesn't actually exist only in the form of the check. With a full contract and invoice, the transaction exists legally and on paper.

If you had a contract and you had invoiced him, you could hold the work. Depending on the contract type, he might not even be able to fire you due to breach of contract on his behalf. Since you don't have any paper work, and it's his word against your's. You are SOL.

Personally it sounds like you are giving him a run around, and he is reacting accordingly.

 

[x002657]

Don't get discouraged.

Don't get discouraged.

you're lucky in that you're doing what you enjoy doing.

I feel he understands that I wasn't happy with the money, but ultimately he sees
me as some young kid with knowledge. Regardless if that is true the level of work
he's getting is worth a lot more than what he's paying.

He may never get that until I change hours or move on, but at this point I feel my options are to save,
and stop giving him more than what he deserves.

Age is a quandary...it's one of those things that, no matter how much or how little you have, it's seldom the "right" amount at the moment. Those who have it often want less of it; those without it often can't wait to get more. Don't be in a hurry to acquire more; you'll have it before you know it.

As for "giving" and "deserving", he "deserves" no less than what he's paying for (except, perhaps, for common courtesy and any "extras" you decide to toss in as part of your effort to provide good customer service to a client).

Are you using your equipment or his? (I get the sense his, and at his location). Do you have your own equipment to take on other clients? If so, start developing a contract that you could present to them when work arises, then begin to seek out other work when you're not at his location. (There are numerous web sites to find them and probably examples available on these boards).

Besides, it seems he's not going to hire you as an employee, and how long is he likely to continue to use you? (Arguably that's another item to consider for mention in a contract...its' length/duration). And, how long can you continue to work for the discounted amount?

As time passes you may well go your separate ways, but don't burn the bridge back to him when you do. Remember to keep it business-oriented, but keep it amicable; there's no need to offend or insult him. As other work comes your way, you can simply say "I have other clients/work that I can't afford to turn down, so I can't take on your project right now, or until x date or event", or words to that effect. (Since there's no contract between you and him, it seems he has no hold on you as other work becomes available).

For example I got him to buy after effects so that we can use it, but at these rate I wont do any green screen or keying,
I will just keep it simple until my value goes up, or until I get paid fairly.

Could he do everything you now do for him? Would he be able to use AE without you, or someone else with your level of knowledge?
If not, he spent a few hundred $$ on something that he needs you for...an increase in your overall value, i.e. without you, he spent that $$ on software he doesn't know how to use. Additionally, as you prove yourself in AE, your value "in the market" and to others has increased, too. While that may not lead to more $$ per hour, it's one more thing you have to offer the rest of the market and find more work.

Last thing to keep in mind: one can get into a wrestling match with one's self when you can do 10 things but have been hired to do only 2. (I suspect there are numerous posters to these boards who seldom get hired to do everything they know how to do). Do what you're hired to do. Just because you can do "10 things" doesn't mean you should, or that you'll get paid - or even recognized - for it. (I know I've read stories here where others have contributed to projects beyond what they were hired to do; some got nothing extra for it, some got future gigs for it).
Example: I can, (make that I think I can) shoot, edit, ride sound, author, and work a mic boom decently well. (Though I did go to see Springstein Monday night and I'm not sure my hearing has recovered yet). But, I also sometimes work as a PA to someone running a 1-man shop, often just lugging his equipment around, or setting up/breaking-down. Behind my own camera, I get decent money; as a PA, I get considerably less. My point being, I can do those other things, but I'm not being paid to do them, so I don't.

Others here may disagree with that view, but it's my $.02 at the moment.

Good luck in finding more work.

 

[dantewaters]

you're lucky in that you're doing what you enjoy doing.



Age is a quandary...it's one of those things that, no matter how much or how little you have, it's seldom the "right" amount at the moment. Those who have it often want less of it; those without it often can't wait to get more. Don't be in a hurry to acquire more; you'll have it before you know it.

As for "giving" and "deserving", he "deserves" no less than what he's paying for (except, perhaps, for common courtesy and any "extras" you decide to toss in as part of your effort to provide good customer service to a client).

Are you using your equipment or his? (I get the sense his, and at his location). Do you have your own equipment to take on other clients? If so, start developing a contract that you could present to them when work arises, then begin to seek out other work when you're not at his location. (There are numerous web sites to find them and probably examples available on these boards).

Besides, it seems he's not going to hire you as an employee, and how long is he likely to continue to use you? (Arguably that's another item to consider for mention in a contract...its' length/duration). And, how long can you continue to work for the discounted amount?

As time passes you may well go your separate ways, but don't burn the bridge back to him when you do. Remember to keep it business-oriented, but keep it amicable; there's no need to offend or insult him. As other work comes your way, you can simply say "I have other clients/work that I can't afford to turn down, so I can't take on your project right now, or until x date or event", or words to that effect. (Since there's no contract between you and him, it seems he has no hold on you as other work becomes available).



Could he do everything you now do for him? Would he be able to use AE without you, or someone else with your level of knowledge?
If not, he spent a few hundred $$ on something that he needs you for...an increase in your overall value, i.e. without you, he spent that $$ on software he doesn't know how to use. Additionally, as you prove yourself in AE, your value "in the market" and to others has increased, too. While that may not lead to more $$ per hour, it's one more thing you have to offer the rest of the market and find more work.

Last thing to keep in mind: one can get into a wrestling match with one's self when you can do 10 things but have been hired to do only 2. (I suspect there are numerous posters to these boards who seldom get hired to do everything they know how to do). Do what you're hired to do. Just because you can do "10 things" doesn't mean you should, or that you'll get paid - or even recognized - for it. (I know I've read stories here where others have contributed to projects beyond what they were hired to do; some got nothing extra for it, some got future gigs for it).
Example: I can, (make that I think I can) shoot, edit, ride sound, author, and work a mic boom decently well. (Though I did go to see Springstein Monday night and I'm not sure my hearing has recovered yet). But, I also sometimes work as a PA to someone running a 1-man shop, often just lugging his equipment around, or setting up/breaking-down. Behind my own camera, I get decent money; as a PA, I get considerably less. My point being, I can do those other things, but I'm not being paid to do them, so I don't.

Others here may disagree with that view, but it's my $.02 at the moment.

Good luck in finding more work.

wow thanks I just read your post today it added volume to my character...

Thank a lot man...