Challenge: EX1 better than Scarlet 2/3"

[Duke M.]

I wasn't talking about the fixed Scarlet. But if that's the discussion, and you declare better to mean lower F-Stop and more zoom, then yes, the EX1 wins.

There are those at reduser that point out that the Red zoom has the exact same specs as the Sigma, but in a different housing. (I have no knowledge one way or another but they have to get the glass for the lenses from somewhere.) But I digress.

@Huy Vu, so TRUE.

 

[Barry_Green]

The original Red 18-50 zoom lens does indeed bear a lot of resemblance to a certain Sigma, as does the 50-150. Doesn't really matter that much, as everyone pretty much seemed to agree that the Red lenses were optically just fine, but mechanically not on par with dedicated cinema lenses. So they came out with the Red Pro Primes, which are dedicated cinema lenses.

As for the f/1.9 vs. f/2.8, two things: first, the Red Scarlet has been stated to be a constant-aperture lens, so it's f/2.8 throughout. The EX1 isn't, it's f/1.9 at the wide end, but f/2.8 at telephoto. Second, if I'm not mistaken, Jarred has confirmed that the Scarlet is more like f/2.4, T/2.6. So probably a wash, as compared to the EX1, or close enough to not really worry about.

But here's the main thing -- we don't really know what the Scarlet will do at all. Any time they make an announcement, things have changed again and again. So comparing an existing product to a future/announced product is a fundamentally pointless excercise. You're comparing a real, existing camera against a brochure.

Why do people look forward to the Scarlet? Well, variable frame rates and dedicated cinema usage would be the primary reasons. I really don't have much of, if any, interest in a 2/3" Scarlet, but the S35 size is very very interesting. I am one that doesn't think the image will likely be all that much sharper from a Scarlet vs. an EX1 (or HPX300 or other full-raster 3-chip camera). The 3K mode will give a hopefully very, very detailed 1920x1080 image; it may be a little sharper, it'll probably have slightly higher color resolution, etc.

But -- again, there's really no comparison because one product exists and the other doesn't yet.

 

[dcloud]

i think the bottomline is, scarlet isnt targetted for wedding or events usage. It's for cinema usage.

if its filmmaking or commercial,
scarlet is a good alternative to the ex1

 

[Robert Ruffo]

Ex1 beats Scarlet because of one simple reason: it's hard to shoot good footage with a bruchure. I've tried - I just couldn't figure out where to put the media card.

That said, a Red One in the right hands is the best cam you can buy, today, at any price.

 

[Duke M.]

Its relevant to me in regards to my upgrade path, and anyone else considering their short term future upgrades.

It seems the general consensus is that the DOF will be somewhat similar. With the nanoflash the image quality and colors will be comparable but for different reasons.

Scarlet will have a better codec, but with the Nanoflash a lot of that advantage disappears.

However, if I buy an EX1 now I can use it for a year or two before the scarlet even comes out. And by buying a used EX1 we can buy or rent a nanoflash and be close to the same price point. :thumbsup: So the fixed scarlet will just be another video camera and between that and the EX1 its more of a features choice rather than images choice.

 

[Vince K]

I think most pros, if they could afford it, would opt for a system that has superior color, codec, and glass. And then sort out the workflow.

Bingo.

 

[basspig]

Ex1 beats Scarlet because of one simple reason: it's hard to shoot good footage with a bruchure. I've tried - I just couldn't figure out where to put the media card.

That said, a Red One in the right hands is the best cam you can buy, today, at any price.

I don't think so. Sony and NHK have already led the world in the next iteration of high def:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z7oQ0czp08

 

[Barry_Green]

That said, a Red One in the right hands is the best cam you can buy, today, at any price.

I think even Red would disagree with this statement. They might say they're the best at their price point, but I think even Jim Jannard would acknowledge that a Sony F35 ($350,000) produces better images than a Red One does. And at 20x the price, it had darn well better.

Nothing against the Red One, it's a great deal for what it is, but ... a Canon 5D isn't a Red One, and a Red One isn't an F35.

 

[PerroneFord]

I think even Red would disagree with this statement. They might say they're the best at their price point, but I think even Jim Jannard would acknowledge that a Sony F35 ($350,000) produces better images than a Red One does. And at 20x the price, it had darn well better.

Nothing against the Red One, it's a great deal for what it is, but ... a Canon 5D isn't a Red One, and a Red One isn't an F35.

F35, Genesis, D21... all cameras that a great many folk think produce an image superior to the RED.

I am just WAITING for the day that a D21 or Alexa falls into a range I can buy one... That will be a day for celebrating.

 

[Duke M.]

Well, with District 9 and Public Enemies, the EX1 has been in more major motion pictures than the Scarlet. LOL

 

[Duke M.]

Second, if I'm not mistaken, Jarred has confirmed that the Scarlet is more like f/2.4, T/2.6.

"more like" is his subjective opinion. The announced spec is T3 or ~f2.8. That's more than a full f-stop, and the difference between a 1/2" and 2/3" sensor as far as DOF goes is 2/3ds of a stop.

As for the f/1.9 vs. f/2.8, two things: first, the Red Scarlet has been stated to be a constant-aperture lens, so it's f/2.8 throughout. The EX1 isn't, it's f/1.9 at the wide end, but f/2.8 at telephoto.

When I first read this I accepted it on face value since my A1 did this. However, being new to the EX1 I got mine out to run some tests. It isn't true.

The EX1 stays in f/1.9 all the way through the zoom. So the EX1 is still a bigger aperture at both the wide and tele settings and WILL have better DOF control.

Other than the 120fps rate the fixed Scarlet there will be no reason for EX1 owners to switch.

 

[moldcad]

WILL[/U] have better DOF control.

Unfortunately, the EX1 lens DOES ramp - it's just that the F-stop display doesn't reflect it.

 

[Duke M.]

We're back to a wash then.

 

[mico]

Other than the 120fps rate the fixed Scarlet there will be no reason for EX1 owners to switch.

What about data rate, compression science, and color space.

 

[Duke M.]

Increased data rates and color space have their place for busy movements, keying and specialty color grading. For most those are special scenes rather than everyday shooting.

For those special situations you can rent or buy a nanoflash. If there's something in the way of keying, CC or busy patterns you can't do with an EX1 and a rented nanoflash (up to 160/220 Mbps 4:2:2 I-Frame Full-Raster) you're doing something wrong.

On the other hand you can have footage you don't have to CC, four channel sound, SDHC cards, 150% longer zoom, no debayer filter and other advantages with the EX1. Its a wash.

 

[Barry_Green]

"more like" is his subjective opinion.

Well, seeing as he's the #2 man at Red, probably one of the principal designers as well, I think his subjective opinion counts for a lot!

The EX1 stays in f/1.9 all the way through the zoom.

That is simply not true. It LOOKS like that's what it's doing, but it isn't. The lens is absolutely, positively, unquestionably, without a doubt stopping down as you zoom in. It just doesn't TELL you it's doing it.

Here, run a simple test: zoom in to full telephoto and turn on the spotmeter and open the iris all the way up to f/1.9, and point it at a white wall. Make a note of what the spotmeter's telling you the brightness is in the center of the screen. Then start closing down the iris, and ... son of a gun, you won't see any brightness change until you get the iris more closed down to about f/2.8. Wonder why that is? Because the iris is already at f/2.8! Now, try the same thing at wide angle, and you'll see that the brightness changes immediately upon closing the iris ring down.

So the EX1 is still a bigger aperture at both the wide and tele settings and WILL have better DOF control.

Nope. And if you're allowing discussion of the interchangeable-lens Scarlet, it'll allow for quite a bit better DOF control because you can put 1.4 or even 1.2 primes on it.

Other than the 120fps rate the fixed Scarlet there will be no reason for EX1 owners to switch.

That's a very premature statement to make. First of all, you're limiting the entire Scarlet experience to a few announced specs, many/most of which may bear no relevance to the actual shipping product. Second, you're ignoring the interchangeable-lens Scarlet model, which is actually less expensive than the fixed-lens. Third, you're ignoring the wavelet codec and any other niceties they may have put in there.

I don't think the Scarlet is going to be for everyone, and I think the EX1 (other than its ergonomic problems) is going to make a better "video" camera for "video" purposes than the Scarlet will. But to rule out a product that hasn't even shipped yet -- what's the point?

 

[Duke M.]

You missed my other post where I acknowledged what moldcad said. He mentioned that the f stop change just doesn't change what it says on the screen. I was going by was what the screen was telling me.

I don't think you can judge the EX1 against the changeable lens scarlet. When you have to buy all the little accessories it looks like it will be a completely different price point. However, you'll be able to move stuff forward as you upgrade.

Adding suffient accessories to a 2/3" brain isn't likely to be cheaper in the long run. Like you, I think the S35 scarlet is promising, especially if I can use EOS glass on it.

Even so $7k for a brain, then batteries, controls, handles, mattebox, etc are going to add up. Its not the same price point but it looks like people will be able to build a really pro rig for $12k or so and utilize glass they already have.

Using Nikon or Canon glass on the 2/3" though is something like an 8 crop factor. Even a 20mm lens will be a long(ish) telephoto.

If the announced specs have no bearing to what will be released then everyone at scarletuser is wasting their time. Of course a lot of people would argue that 67,000 posts about a product that doesn't exist is that already.

 

[Barry_Green]

I don't think you can judge the EX1 against the changeable lens scarlet.

Well, see, I also think you can't judge the EX1 against the other Scarlet either, because neither Scarlet exists as a product today, and we frankly don't know anything about them. We think we do, but up until they say "specifications are final", all they are willing to commit to is "everything's going to change" so -- what they're telling us is that we don't know anything. And seeing the evolution the Red One has undergone, and the delays and redesigns the Scarlet has already undergone, I think any prudent buyer would cling to the one thing they've said that will not change: "everything (specs, prices, release dates, everything) is subject to change, count on it." That's the only guaranteed thing we know about the Scarlet, is that everything we've been told is subject to change.

So how can you compare an actual, existing, buy-it-today, use-it-today product against a brochure? Especially one that's been revamped from the ground up repeatedly?

I have no doubt there will be a Scarlet someday. I have no doubt I will buy one of the first ones available. But I also don't spend a lot of time worrying about it, because it's going to change, so why get emotionally invested in a brochure that you've already been told will change?

If the announced specs have no bearing to what will be released then everyone at scarletuser is wasting their time

Well, you could equally argue that everyone watching professional sports is wasting their time. But -- if they enjoy it, what better way to spend your time than doing something you really enjoy?

Actually, the ScarletUser folks aren't wasting their time, they're being watched and monitored by the team at Red, and their input is going to help design the product -- whether this particular Scarlet, or a future model, you can be pretty sure that the team at Red is listening.

But if people are making business decisions based on some announcement? Yeah, that's seriously not wise. You make business decisions based on actual products, not on promises and brochures. I would have thought people would have learned that lesson pretty thoroughly by now, what with the Play Trinity and all.

 

[mico]

Increased data rates and color space have their place for busy movements, keying and specialty color grading. For most those are special scenes rather than everyday shooting.

For those special situations you can rent or buy a nanoflash. If there's something in the way of keying, CC or busy patterns you can't do with an EX1 and a rented nanoflash (up to 160/220 Mbps 4:2:2 I-Frame Full-Raster) you're doing something wrong.

On the other hand you can have footage you don't have to CC, four channel sound, SDHC cards, 150% longer zoom, no debayer filter and other advantages with the EX1. Its a wash.

I love my EX1R. Even if I get a scarlet I'm not getting rid of it. But having a raw workflow for a supposedly cheaper cost than the EX1's is not a wash for me. The scarlet fixed would be what we've been waiting for regarding a small form factor cam recording to affordable media with post production manipulation robustness at a price thats affordable with a 3K chip designed for cinema applications, regardless if you're doing any 'special' heavy effects work. I respectfully don't see the wash.

 

[mico]

I don't think the Scarlet is going to be for everyone, and I think the EX1 (other than its ergonomic problems) is going to make a better "video" camera for "video" purposes than the Scarlet will. But to rule out a product that hasn't even shipped yet -- what's the point?

If ergonomics are were an issue for anyone with the EX1 the EX1R has come along and made handholding a cam this size (if thats your thing) a pleasure.