Certain actors distorted when they say "s" words?!!

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Filmkid2003

Well-known member
Hey everybody. I have a Rode NTG-3 shotgun mic and a Sound Devices Mixpre. When my sound guy (just a friend helping, not an experienced sound guy) is micing the actors, I noticed certain actors are distorted when they say their "s". But, other actors in the same scene are not distorted at all. The actors are boomed exactly the same way. Is there any explanation for this and a way to fix it? Thanks.
 
Filmkid2003 said:
Hey everybody. I have a Rode NTG-3 shotgun mic and a Sound Devices Mixpre. When my sound guy (just a friend helping, not an experienced sound guy) is micing the actors, I noticed certain actors are distorted when they say their "s". But, other actors in the same scene are not distorted at all. The actors are boomed exactly the same way. Is there any explanation for this and a way to fix it? Thanks.
Click to expand...

What do you mean 'distorted'?

The 's' is a popular consonant to mangle.

But to rule out device issues, have you tried the mics used by the undistorted speakers, on the distorted speakers, and does the problem follow the mic, or not.
 
Some people are more sibilant than others. Moreover, subtle changes in mic position can have a very dramatic impact on the amount of sibilance picked up.

Sibilants can be significantly louder than other sounds. If the limiters aren't catching them, then try backing the levels off a bit.
 
I just finished Post Production on a feature whose lead actress gave a double dose of Sibilance and Lip Smacking. No De-esser worked and ended up using Izotope RX (Spectral Repair) function to hand fix every single "S" and "C" this woman uttered. The director refused to do ADR so every line had to be touched in some way, took forever to clear the mess.. The mic used on the day was an ME-66
 
Thanks guys. To better specify, I am using a Rode NTG-3 shotgun mic, the Rode blimp with a shock moount inside, Rode softie placed over the blimp to cut out wind noise, a K-Tek coiled boom pole, a Sound Devices Mixpre preamp with the low cut filter set at 80, the limiter is on, and I am using the Sennheiser G3 wireless transceiver/receiver and have it plugged straight into my HPX170 audio input 2. The audio input on my camera is set to "Line" not mic. We do a 1KHz tone test every time we set up a new shot and I set the levels on the camera at the -20db mark during the tone test.

Yesterday, I hooked everything up the same way EXCEPT I didn't go wireless but ran a 20 foot XLR cable from the Mixpre straight into the camera and the same actor that was creating some distortion whenever he said an "s" didn't create any distortion this time! Could it be the wireless system that's creating the problem? That doesn't make sense to me either because we've used the same exact wireless setup with the same actor on numerous occasions and we didn't get any "s" distortion from him on those occasions! I'm baffled. Could it be low batteries in the Mixpre?

One more thing, the sound guy has been forced to mic the actors with the boom from below their mouths, otherwise, I would get either the boom or the boom pole in the shot from the angle and distance I'm shooting the scene from. Could that be the problem as well or do you think it is strictly a "sound levels" issue?
 
YOu shouldn't use wireless unless it's absolutely necessary. You may have your transmitter turned up too much. I have had wireless "s" problems too. Just turn your wireless down a little, and don't use it from the mixer to the camera. That degrades the audio beyond just enhancing the "s" sound.
 
Look up and learn about the dreaded "key test"
http://www.lectrosonics.com/faq/faq1byref.php?id=34

Its just one of the things that separate the lower end systems from the pro systems.


I disagree that you shouldnt use wireless unless absolutely necessary.
I haven't used a wired lav in countless years. EVER. The convenience they bring to the table
is too high for me to ever think otherwise.

Of course you need a quality system to have this mindset.

I'm about to possibly start a national drama..and im seriously considering my 1st boom this time to be 100% wireless
the entire time just as many have been doing for years.
 
Rippie, I gathered that Filmkid2003 was using the wireless to go from the mixer to the camera, not a lav to the mixer. I could be wrong, but I think that's what he meant. I say if the mixer isn't in the shot (why would it be?), there is no reason to go wireless.

"I didn't go wireless but ran a 20 foot XLR cable from the Mixpre straight into the camera and the same actor that was creating some distortion whenever he said an "s" didn't create any distortion this time! Could it be the wireless system that's creating the problem? "
 
Yes, its true. I have the wireless set up so that the mixer is wireless to the camera. That way, my boom operatot who is also my grip and lighting guy (because I can only afford a one man crew) doesn't have to unthether himself from me by unplugging from the camera so he can reposition the bounce reflectors for each shot. Otherwise, if we go wired, it cuts into our production time. Here's the thing, only certain actors at certain times distort on their "s" sounds with the wireless setup. I'm thinking, if an actor is distorting on their "s" sounds then for that actor and scene, I will NOT go wireless and see if that solves the problem. So, you're saying its most likely the wireless sytem that is the cause of the problem and not the actor or the position of the mic?
 
Wireless systems all degrade the sound compared to using a real cable. The more expensive wireless systems (2,000.00 and up) sound pretty good. The G3/G2 will not sound too good with the very high range of the audio spectrum. That's what the "Key test" is. You jingle keys to hear how natural they sound. Personally I have heard the "S" sound with my G3 sound terrible. I noticed it MORE with the G3 than with my G2 for some reason. That was using the supplied ME-2 lav.

Have you considered using a breakaway cable? It's really handy and though you's have 3 cables wrapped up in one (two XLR and one 1/8" to return the camera's headphone audio back to the Mixer) you are able to disconnect it at the camera while leaving all the connections in.

Example
http://www.trewaudio.com/store/product.php?productid=109&cat=0&page=1


I ordered one custom made, 25' for 200.00 from a guy named Blake Wilcox ( fredfstone60@hotmail.com ). It even has a female mini at the camera end so the camera guy can hear if he wants.

Here's his "under construction" site: http://www.wilcoxsound.com

You can buy extensions if you need more length, and he even puts you name right on the cable.

I'll finish by encouraging you to try to not degrade your audio whenever possible. If it's just some throw away video for a client who doesn't care then whatever, but if its' something you want to be really good, don't put a wireless after the mixer.
 
That's a great rig, the NTG-3 has a smooth sibilant sound even at the edge of its pattern and the SD is among the best.

If it's actually *distorted* after hearing it later .. now your audio guy should be able to identify it in his cans as it's going down .. if he's listening off the camera.

In tracking it down .. try getting one or 2 sibilant actors to run some tests for you both using the original setup. Listen to the feed from the SD cans output first and don't drive its limiters too hard. My 2 cents.

Cheers.
 
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Chadfish said:
That's what the "Key test" is. You jingle keys to hear how natural they sound.
Click to expand...

Not really - the key test is done to excite the compander system to see how well it copes.

It's really a compander test.

Some companders cope better than others with this test - but it does not tell you how good the compander is, just how well it copes with these type of signals. It was introduces many years ago by someone who dealt with systems that copes well with this type of test to try and knock the opposition.
 
i have a tram tr50 and some countryman b6's wired for my G2s and i've noticed the tr50 really esses the hell out of some S's. countrymans, not so much at all.
 
John Willett said:
Not really - the key test is done to excite the compander system to see how well it copes.
Click to expand...

And to know how well the compander copes, you use your ears, judging how natural the keys sound. I was speaking simply since the link describes all the tech info.
 
Hey, Rippie, I did check out the link you posted after you asked me if I checked it out. Anyway, I thought Sennheiser was one of the best wireless systems on a mediocre budget and now I'm starting to regret spending the $600! I guess I can use the wireless system when I'm recording the lead actor's dialog because so far I haven't had any problems with him and the wireless setup. As far as the other two actors, it sounds like I'll have to go wired. One more thing, could the problem be from a blocked transmitter antenna, like the transmitter being on the left side of the boom operator and the receiver being on the right side of the boom operator? I'm guessing 200 pounds of flesh and water could degrade an audio signal in some ways?
 
Filmkid2003 said:
Hey, Rippie, I did check out the link you posted after you asked me if I checked it out. Anyway, I thought Sennheiser was one of the best wireless systems on a mediocre budget and now I'm starting to regret spending the $600! I guess I can use the wireless system when I'm recording the lead actor's dialog because so far I haven't had any problems with him and the wireless setup. As far as the other two actors, it sounds like I'll have to go wired. One more thing, could the problem be from a blocked transmitter antenna, like the transmitter being on the left side of the boom operator and the receiver being on the right side of the boom operator? I'm guessing 200 pounds of flesh and water could degrade an audio signal in some ways?
Click to expand...

It's the RF signal that would be degraded... and with it the 'audio signal'

Generally speaking, for these frequencies... the watch word is 'line of sight'.

A question for those who use these devices... is there an SNR indicator on the receiver unit?

If they do, then one could verify at least to some level that the signal is getting to the receiver at reasonable strength.
 
Hey Raster, the boom operator is monitoring the sound straight from the Mixpre and I am monitoring the sound going into the HPX170 camcorder since I'm the director/cameraman. I was told that once you do the 1KHz test tone and set the levels on the Mixpre and the HPX170 to where they should be, that you shouldn't touch the level knob on the Mixpre. So, that means if one actor is getting distorted on his "s" sounds, then I should turn the trim pots down a bit on the HPX170?
 
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