Ceiling Bounce?

David G. Smith

David G. Smith

Steak Knife Member
I have been re-watching a lot of films of the 1970's, especially those shot by the great Gordon Willis ASC http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0932336/ and I have noticed that in a lot of films variations on the use of ceiling bounce lighting is used, and used very well. I have done it on occasion, but have not been all that pleased with the results, however, I want to revisit the use of ceiling bounce lighting. Now I know it is not a "One size fits all" solution for broad base lighting, but I feel that it could be a very good technique to have in the kit, so to speak, and would like to get better at it.

What I have not been doing is using any flags to shape the light. What I am thinking is bringing in a flag, angled up to flag off the hot spot and using the light spread across the ceiling as the base lighting. Any thoughts on this, or any techniques that you use to make ceiling bounce light look better?

Thank you.
 
Bounce into the ceiling behind where the action is taking place and then use a meat axe, probably something like a 24x72 floppy and do a bit of a topper. You can also use 4x4 flops or even a t-boned 6x solid to act as a sider.

Sometimes it is just easier to bounce a light off the ceiling, especially if thats the sort of reflectiveness you're going for, but I usually like a 4x4 beadboard or 6x since I can control the angle and material much easier. Just depends on the size of the show really.
 
RyanT said:
Bounce into the ceiling behind where the action is taking place and then use a meat axe, probably something like a 24x72 floppy and do a bit of a topper. You can also use 4x4 flops or even a t-boned 6x solid to act as a sider.

Sometimes it is just easier to bounce a light off the ceiling, especially if thats the sort of reflectiveness you're going for, but I usually like a 4x4 beadboard or 6x since I can control the angle and material much easier. Just depends on the size of the show really.
Click to expand...

Ok, It does depend on the ceiling color and all. The thing that I want to avoid with using bead board, foam core or the like is the directionality of the light. I wish I could pull a screen shot of what exactly I am looking for, I am having issues with DVD play back on my computer, but the ceiling bounce that I want to replicate is very subtle soft broad base of light. I can see that the size of the show, and the amount of gripology resources available, is very important. I do want to keep from using the technique as a lazy way to light a scene, but I do want to be able to pull out the technique when limited resources are available, and make it look good. Thanks for the response.
 
David G. Smith said:
I have been re-watching a lot of films of the 1970's, especially those shot by the great Gordon Willis ASC http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0932336/ and I have noticed that in a lot of films variations on the use of ceiling bounce lighting is used, and used very well. I have done it on occasion, but have not been all that pleased with the results, however, I want to revisit the use of ceiling bounce lighting. Now I know it is not a "One size fits all" solution for broad base lighting, but I feel that it could be a very good technique to have in the kit, so to speak, and would like to get better at it.

What I have not been doing is using any flags to shape the light. What I am thinking is bringing in a flag, angled up to flag off the hot spot and using the light spread across the ceiling as the base lighting. Any thoughts on this, or any techniques that you use to make ceiling bounce light look better?

Thank you.
Click to expand...

Given my stills activity... we would use flash bounce from the ceiling quite a bit to soften the flash. As noted elsewhere, color cast of the ceiling or walls if used, will be problematic for very 'strange' colors.

I participated in a 48 Hour film a few weeks ago, and for one shot with a couple in a living room setting, the DP/Camera people spent the better part of 2 hours (for a 48 Hour film, that's about 2-3 days in 'indie feature time'...),
setting up a lighting situation, that to me was pretty ugly... due to the time press, they shot a few 'quick' shots and just pointed the main light, something like a 500 W florescent, at the ceiling, perhaps about 1-1.5 feet away from the ceiling.

Major improvement of 'soft light'...

That said, I do recall reading somewhere, about the negative look of 'top light' on 'interior night shots'... so, in that case perhaps pointing at walls, may be better to give a fill in darkspots and a 'soft' look.
 
j1clark@ucsd.edu said:
Given my stills activity... we would use flash bounce from the ceiling quite a bit to soften the flash. As noted elsewhere, color cast of the ceiling or walls if used, will be problematic for very 'strange' colors.

I participated in a 48 Hour film a few weeks ago, and for one shot with a couple in a living room setting, the DP/Camera people spent the better part of 2 hours (for a 48 Hour film, that's about 2-3 days in 'indie feature time'...),
setting up a lighting situation, that to me was pretty ugly... due to the time press, they shot a few 'quick' shots and just pointed the main light, something like a 500 W florescent, at the ceiling, perhaps about 1-1.5 feet away from the ceiling.

Major improvement of 'soft light'...

That said, I do recall reading somewhere, about the negative look of 'top light' on 'interior night shots'... so, in that case perhaps pointing at walls, may be better to give a fill in darkspots and a 'soft' look.
Click to expand...

Well, there are a lot of folks that will Poo-poo ceiling bounce for being "Too flat" of a lighting source and I do understand. That is a big part of what I want overcome. However, like I noted in the OP, I have been studying the cinematography of the 1970's and am really finding some fantastic stuff done with soft lighting and especially what looks like, to me, to be instances of the use of ceiling bounce light. Now, I am also working to develop top lighting with the use of fixtures mounted up high and have a thread in regards to that http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?285375-Overhead-rigging-for-locations . I do, actually consider the the top lighting and ceiling bounce to be different kinds of animals, so to speak.
 
"Too flat" of a lighting source

Well yeah, if that's all you used, but usually it isn't. It's used for fill and/or to raise the overall ambient light level. It's not a key light.
 
It can be used as a key light, if done properly. I like to light off the ceiling, but it's not just to flood the room with light. I use it in a quick and dirty way with barn doors to throw a soft source from the equivalent direction of where I'd put a kino or a chimera. It works fast and very well. The only down side is spill control, the same reason you have egg crates for kinos or chimeras. For that I'd use a flag or meat axe (as stated above).
 
Certainly many ways to skin a cat.
I virtually never use soft key and if I was going to, I'd probably just throw 216 on a fresnel not jump through the hoops to try and control that kind of bounce. So never even thought about using it that way.
 
gonzo_entertainment said:
Certainly many ways to skin a cat.
I virtually never use soft key and if I was going to, I'd probably just throw 216 on a fresnel not jump through the hoops to try and control that kind of bounce. So never even thought about using it that way.
Click to expand...

There are many ways to skin a cat when it comes to cinematography, that is for sure. The thing is, I think that jumping through the hoops to try and control bounce light, and other simple soft light sources, COULD pay off big in creating images. Since I am pretty much a guerrilla guy, with limited resources, trying to tame soft light is a real big mouthful to chew. I can't help but try though because I think that the pay off, image wise, will be worth it.

From what I am seeing, from the films that I am studying, is that ceiling bounce is used (or, actually could probably be used, based on the way I think that the scenes were lit) in a variety of situations. The first is the way that you said Gonzo, as a general ambient fill light, especially to boost on scene practicals. I have also noted that is is used as a bread and butter day interior lighting, especially in office type environments. Then there is the use in "Very Dark" scenes, like a house with all the lights off, where it looks like there is a very soft top ambiance and nothing else. Scenes like this are obviously "Printed down", but it can be very effective to convey that "No light" look.

It just seems to me to be a handy technique that I want to be able to use to the best advantage and am very welcome to any advice as to improving how to use it.
 
Bottom line is the man who is in control of the photography of the scene has to make sure that people are looking at what they are meant to be looking at - thats in simple terms. Then that all has to fit the theme, mood and the scene. Bouncing off the ceiling is a technique that has a result. Its as valid as any other technique if it suits its purpose. Its one of those areas however that I see a lot of people making basic mistakes with. Which include but are not limited to:

- Bouncing off a ceiling that is not a shade, which in turn disrupts the colour temp.
- Bouncing off a ceiling without any real direction to light up a scene as the only real light source.
- Bouncing off a ceiling because they saw someone else do it without understanding the reason behind it and how they were using it.

Generally speaking I dont bounce off anything I havent put there myself and that could be something Ive put level with the ceiling.
 
If the ceiling is low enough to make a difference (like a standard 8-9' high apartment or house)... using something like a fresnel with a top hat or doors, or a flo very close to the ceiling can be pretty sweet. The thing to consider is "how big a "pool" of light do you put up there? One hot spot on a ceiling at a 3/4 angle to your talent, for instance - it can be as pretty as a china ball but very controlled.

You've now seen a bunch of posts and ideas... why not test for yourself?
 
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