Rylan Zolinski
Well-known member
Well, I always liked Sennheiser. What sort of quality could I except from $100-$150 each? Would they be decent enough?
Capturing audio for a Christmas concert...
- Thread starter Rylan Zolinski
- Start date
Well, I always liked Sennheiser. What sort of quality could I except from $100-$150 each? Would they be decent enough?
Steve House
Veteran
An excellent budget cardioid for this application would be the Audio Technica AT3031 which ran about $250 each. That particular mic has been discontinued and replaced by the AT4021 and the AT4041 in the current lineup. A pair of small diaphram condensors like this mounted together in an X/Y configuration (check out Wikipedia) gives an excellent stereo image. You could also use a pair of omnis such as the AT4022 in an A/B array, on stands up about 8 feet high, set about 3 feet in front of the kids and spaced about 10 feet apart. Be cautious about any of the large number of cardioids in the $100 - $150 range such as you mentioned ... the majority are intended for stage vocals where the singer is 'eating' the mic and aren't as effective when not within a couple of inches of the singer's mouth.
For all intents and purposes, all professional level mics use XLR connector so you would use your existing cables with whatever you get.
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Rylan Zolinski
Well-known member
This is starting to really stress me out. I feel like I might purchase the wrong mic and won't find out until after I capture the audio. Someone mentioned last page that they recommend I get a cardioid mic. You said that I should be a tad weary. Is the better the cardioid mic, the more distance/range I can get?
I will have to see what's available in town here. There is a store that sells some audio equipment and I guess I will tell them my situation and see what they have to offer. Hopefully they are knowledgeable enough to point me in the right direction.
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Steve House
Veteran
No no, I didn't say to avoid caridoids - quite the contrary. A pair of cardioids would be my first thought to try in your situation. BUT you need to look beyond just the shape of the polar pattern. There are a lot of cardioids on the market in the $100 - $150 range that are designed for hand-held use by a stage vocalist. They would be less suitable for recording an ensemble or a choir than would be a pair of small-diaphram cardioids similar to those I mentioned.
Rylan Zolinski
Well-known member
Woops, I guess I just misread what you said.
What would be the issue using my Rode NTG2 then?
Steve House
Veteran
A shotgun is highly directive with its zone of maximum sensitivity a fairly narrow cone coming out of the end of the mic. If you point it to the middle of a stage full of kids, only the center kids will be on-mic with the rest of the group off-mic to a varying degree. Imagine replacing the mic with a flashlight and you'll see what I mean - a lot of the kids other than those that the mic is pointed at will be in the mic's "shadow." For a group you want fairly smooth coverage over an arc of perhaps 150 degrees. Shotguns cover an arc of maybe 20 degrees. You use them to isolate a soloist or to capture dialog while rejecting ambience. But you don't want to isolate the kids in the center, you want to pick up the kids all the way out on the left and right ends of the group just as well as you get those in the middle.
Take a deep breath Morox. You're getting hit with a lot of information at once.
Before you run out and buy mics, look in he yellow pages for audio rental places. You probably have a rental company near enough to use. That's the way to go at first.
Audio equipment is almost always more expensive than your video stuff, so choose carefully and if possible, rent until you know what you need.
I'd be rich if I had the money I've spent on poorly chosen equipment over the years.
JordanBlock
Well-known member
The NTG-2, like basically all shotguns, uses an interference tube design to reject off-axis sound. Inside, particularly in a reflective room like a gym, sound bounces around a lot and you can get strange / poor results. This is the reason you hypercardioids as the standard for interior dialog recording on set. You're obviously trying to capture a larger area, a musical performance, more or less, so you need a setup that can capture that.
To clarify the cardioid recommendation, we're talking about small-diaphragm cardioid condenser mics. There are almost always a straight cylinder, fairly short, and designed for use in a stand, not hand-held. There were some really cheap mics ($50/pair) discussed here some time ago that weren't terrible, but other examples (not necessarily recommending any of these) include:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/520715-REG/M_Audio_9900_52420_00_Pulsar_II_Matched.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...Projects_C4_C4_Small_Diaphragm_Condenser.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/255009-REG/Rode_NT5_NT5_Matched_Pair.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/598453-REG/Behringer_C_4_C_4_Stereo_Matched_Pair.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/246638-REG/AKG_2895_Z_00210_C451B_ST_Stereo_Matched.html
I know you said you're in a small town, so the local options are limited. I would assume that the school doesn't have what you need, or if they do, they're probably using them already. You could try calling around to bigger churches in the area and see if you can arrange a rental. Small diaphragm condensers are often used as drum overheads and instrument mics, they might have something and be willing to help you out.
The big rental houses will ship ANYWHERE. They can rush things out if needed, but you'd still have to get on that right away. Check localy/next town over/whatever for music stores, they almost always have some sort of pro audio section and may rent stuff.
Alan H. Chang
Veteran
^ I would spring for the Rode NT5 if you could save a bit more for your mics. The M-Audio ones are decent, and the Behringers are actually better than expected and cheaper. I love the AKG C451, but a little bright and 4x your budget. There's also the Audio-Technica Pro37, which goes for around $150 per mic. Small and easy to hide. Good references Jordan.
Rylan Zolinski
Well-known member
I am going to one city over for the weekend (which is much larger). I will be stopping at many stores and asking for help there as well. Hopefully they can point me in the right direction just as much as everyone else has here. I am stressing over this and this is only the first step. The next is to actually capture the sound and hopefully that goes well because I am quite new to this.
Also, my Tascam shipped. There's a small possibility that I will get it by Tuesday. If so, would it be ideal to still use it to record along with the other mics I plan on purchasing? Like set it up behind the students like mentioned previously?
And Alan, if money was not an issue I would definitely go for the NT5. But budget constraints hold me back from that and I guess I will look into the Audio Technica like you mentioned.
Also, my Tascam shipped. There's a small possibility that I will get it by Tuesday. If so, would it be ideal to still use it to record along with the other mics I plan on purchasing? Like set it up behind the students like mentioned previously?
And Alan, if money was not an issue I would definitely go for the NT5. But budget constraints hold me back from that and I guess I will look into the Audio Technica like you mentioned.
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Rylan Zolinski
Well-known member
So, I have a chance to borrow and possibly buy a Marantz PMD661. How much better is this than the DR-100 and would it be a better replacement to capture audio with on Tuesday with its own mics?
Alan H. Chang
Veteran
The PMD661 is still similar to the DR100. I'm not going to suggest onboard microphones since we've past that subject, but do get a pair of cardioid mics. Forget the NT5 since it's out of budget. You could look at the M-Audio Pulsar. I know you don't want to borrow the mics at the school, but what do they have? How do you feel about no-name microphones?
Rylan Zolinski
Well-known member
I have access to the recorder for free and plan on using it as a backup. I plan on buying mics as well. I'm searching out for a few at stores tomorrow and will see what I can find. I just couldn't find much clarity on the PMD661 on whether or not if it can capture the event well enough to use if need be.
Have you considered AKG C100s mics?
They're not too expensive, are small-diaphragm electret condenser mics and come with hypercardiod adapters. They're also (Supposedly) desighned for vocal recording.
I've used them for a lot of stuff, from single mics for recording soloists, through crossed and semi-spaced pairs, up to a 5-way surround array.
I quirte like the NOS configuration, 90 deg angle with a 30cm spacing.
Oh, and they can be powered from internal 9v batteries, to save having to use phantom and run down your recorder's batteries.
Dave
They're not too expensive, are small-diaphragm electret condenser mics and come with hypercardiod adapters. They're also (Supposedly) desighned for vocal recording.
I've used them for a lot of stuff, from single mics for recording soloists, through crossed and semi-spaced pairs, up to a 5-way surround array.
I quirte like the NOS configuration, 90 deg angle with a 30cm spacing.
Oh, and they can be powered from internal 9v batteries, to save having to use phantom and run down your recorder's batteries.
Dave
Rylan Zolinski
Well-known member
I will check them out.
If I choose to use the DR-100 or PMD661 (this is only if I have to) what do I need to mount it onto a microphone stand?
Rylan Zolinski
Well-known member
I bought a pair of cardioids. From my understanding, all the kids will be standing side by side in a few rows. What is the ideal position for the mics (the direction they need to be pointing), how close should they be to one another, and how far away should the kids be from the mics?
At least I have the mics now. The principal thought I was capturing audio directly from my camera. The shoot will be over an hour long. I am very nervous for this. I wish I had more time to prepare for this but I don't and I especially did not want to turn down work. Learning about audio is a whole job in its own and hopefully I can capture it tomorrow without any hiccups. Have any pointers for me?
At least I have the mics now. The principal thought I was capturing audio directly from my camera. The shoot will be over an hour long. I am very nervous for this. I wish I had more time to prepare for this but I don't and I especially did not want to turn down work. Learning about audio is a whole job in its own and hopefully I can capture it tomorrow without any hiccups. Have any pointers for me?
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Rylan Zolinski
Well-known member
I really need a bump.
I need to know the best setup for both the mics and cameras. I am going to try and compact the kids as best as I can since I only have two mics, but I don't know how I should properly position them? How many feet apart from each other, how high I should raise them, and how far away from the kids? The X/Y position seems like it wouldn't capture most of the kids, so I was thinking of separating both mics approximately 25 feet from each other and filming in-between both of them? One camera doing a wide shot while the other camera utilizing closeups. Or is this a bad idea?
I need to know the best setup for both the mics and cameras. I am going to try and compact the kids as best as I can since I only have two mics, but I don't know how I should properly position them? How many feet apart from each other, how high I should raise them, and how far away from the kids? The X/Y position seems like it wouldn't capture most of the kids, so I was thinking of separating both mics approximately 25 feet from each other and filming in-between both of them? One camera doing a wide shot while the other camera utilizing closeups. Or is this a bad idea?
Steve House
Veteran
Very bad idea, if your objective is to record stereo. 25 feet apart, 5 feet in front of the group, might be appropriate for a LARGE choir and two mics that will be mixed down to one mono channel but not for a stereo recording. If you stand in the centre aisle down right in front of the stage looking at the centre of the group of kids, you'll hear them all just fine, won't you? But your ears aren't 25 feet apart, are they? Think in terms of angles - a pair of cardioids in an X/Y array are positioned together with their diaphrams directly over each, the axis' of their pickup patterns crossing and diverging at an angle of about 100 degrees. Think of an upside-down, horizontal "V" with its apex pointing at the centre of the group. The right-hand mic (the right leg of the inverted V) points at the left-hand end of the group and is connected to the LEFT stereo channel. The left-hand mic points to the right-hand end of the group and connects to the RIGHT stereo channel. This means ther stereo field is approximately a semicircle. If your draw a line bisecting the angle formed by the axis' of the two mics, it will point to the centre of the group you're recording. How far from the group needs to be determined by experiment during a rehearsal but roughly in the centreline about 10 feet away from the kids might be a good place to start.
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A coiincedent pair at 90 deg will give you the best results if there is any likelihood of a mono mix anywherre in the chain (Which could even be someone listening in mono). I like the added "air" that comes from a semi-spaced pair (ORTF or NOS). When I have speced mics It's because a choir is going to process between them, don't want the little dears to knock a 14" stand with a Decca Tree on it over! Spacing 6-8' (Not 12!) about 15-20' from the kids.
The PMD has a 1/4" 20 thread on the bottom so it could mount on anything with that size stud, eg a photo head.
Dave
The PMD has a 1/4" 20 thread on the bottom so it could mount on anything with that size stud, eg a photo head.
Dave