Canon's Upcoming RF cinema camera rumored specs

[ahalpert]

The Canon 18-80 is actually a decent lens. It's not a real 2/3" ENG or 17-120 or of that ilk, but for the size, cost an capabilities, 'it ain't bad'.

the 18-80 is kind of an amazing lens for the price, especially considering the AF and IS.

What are its closest competitors? Laowa 25-100 and Fuji 18-55?

Way more usable ENG range on 18-80 plus those other features. Aperture is only downside

 

[puredrifting]

I dont entirely agree because it's got the newer sensor and DGO. So probably more detailed and more dynamic range.

10-bit is a big deal. On the C200 you're either 8-bit or RAW.

RF mount means you can speed-boost from full-frame lenses.

Then there's probably a big AF upgrade from the C200

What's worrisome is the SD cards - the top bitrate can't be that high?

Definitely could be an interesting camera for someone considering buying a C200. And probably will drive down C200 prices

10-bit's not a big deal when you shoot 12-bit RAW ;-) and 8-bit isn't a big deal for the majority of clients unless there are skies or gradients. But for a well lit, nicely shot interview
or b-roll in controllable circumstances, the Canon 8-bit 4:2:0 has been 100% fine and our clients love it. Lighting and colors matter so much more. Few people who get all up in arms
about the Canon C200 8-bit 4:2:0 have shot it, it really looks very good, just not quite as good as the RAW.

It looks better than the C100 (25mbps 8-bit 4:2:0) or our old C300 MKI (50mbps 8-bit 4:2:0), both of which I've used to shoot theatrical
films in 1080 and nobody ever had anything but praise for how great these sub-par, terrible 8-bit 4:2:0 images look on a 50' screen. Specs are overrrated. I only like Cinema RAW Light because it's so flexible IF you screw
up when shooting run & gun documentary, it can save your rear. But if you know how to light and use a good camera with good lenses, 10-bit isn't a deal breaker for most shoots, but everyone acts like it is. Although if you
shoot for broadcast or streamer clients, it's a deal breaker, you MUST shoot 10-bit 4:2:2 generally. That's why I kept my Ninja Blade, I can hook it up to the C200 for those occasional shoots and shoot 1080 4:2:2 10-bit Prores,
which makes a few clients (Hallmark Channel last year) happy.

RF mount would be a negative for me since I own 13 EF and EF S lenses although the adapters would be fine. But the RF offerings to date are incredibly "meh" to me. Good lenses, but expensive and some
weird, questionable specs Canon saddled a lot of them with.

I'm sure the AF will be superior to the C200. But the C200 is totally usable in most cases.

Yes, it will be interesting to see what the bit-rate tops out at with just SD cards, I wouldn't think it can be higher than about 300Mbps unless they specify V90 cards only? We shoot mostly 200Mbps on our X-T3s and it's fine for UHD.

Canon is killing it with certain cameras like the C300 MKIII and the C500 MKII. So far, from what I have seen, the R5 and R6 are definitely good cameras but were introduced and marketed terribly. Canon seems a bit
disorganized with their market strategy these days. These new cameras, if they are real, will be interesting to see.

 

[Run&Gun]

the 18-80 is kind of an amazing lens for the price, especially considering the AF and IS.

What are its closest competitors? Laowa 25-100 and Fuji 18-55?

Way more usable ENG range on 18-80 plus those other features. Aperture is only downside

Slow aperture and I don't like the "slip clutch" focus and witness marks inside the tiny window (both a la still lenses). But otherwise, it's not bad. 7-8 years ago it would have been an absolute game changer.

 

[ahalpert]

10-bit's not a big deal when you shoot 12-bit RAW ;-) and 8-bit isn't a big deal for the majority of clients unless there are skies or gradients. But for a well lit, nicely shot interview
or b-roll in controllable circumstances, the Canon 8-bit 4:2:0 has been 100% fine and our clients love it. Lighting and colors matter so much more. Few people who get all up in arms
about the Canon C200 8-bit 4:2:0 have shot it, it really looks very good, just not quite as good as the RAW.

Unless you have skies or gradients?!?!

Jk I know everyone has different bread and butter. I have a lot of skies and gradients and windows.

But it's the corporate/doc people I find want 10-bit. And they don't want RAW or 1Gbps (from me at least).

I don't have a lot of clients who want 1Gbps, though i could shoot stuff i produce at 1Gbps. But frankly - I'm curious about the H265 and proxy workflow on the A7SIII to save space.

I have a lot of different types of clients and 10-bit is a goldilocks bit-depth. RAW would be nice sometimes (hello prores raw from A7SIII? Maybe.)

RF mount a negative? Just adapt your lenses - why not?

I think these new cameras will be totally usable. And what's great is there are so many price points with different features to choose from.

But I need to evaluate my long-term plan. Is a C300III the next big money-maker? Could these other cameras do that work instead or would they be relegated to B cam in certain Production settings? If I start buying e-mount lenses for an a7siii, am I investing in the wrong direction?

I already own an FS7 so in some ways fs7/A7SIII are an awesome combo with matching codecs and then the AF and low-light features and gimbal-friendly form of the A7SIII when those are needed

 

[davedv]

Where do you see that 4k60 external doesn't overheat?

Some have questioned whether the no-cards method is actually recording 4KHQ or if it's binned.

I think 4k60p is also binned on the R5 - no HQ there according to NorBro.

Plus being tied to a recorder sucks.

But I have Canon lenses, having access to 8K and RAW is neat, and the IBIS is way better.

But I'm leaning heavily toward A7SIII right now

4K 60 external not overheating was reported in Gerald Undone's original test numbers:



The more recent updates to those numbers are that 4K HQ external up to 30 fps can be recorded for up to 4 hours continuously (if cards are removed from the camera). I have indicated this new information in the colored text added to the above chart. Some follow-up tests confirmed that the full 4K HQ video quality is in fact sent out to the external recorder even when not recording internally:
https://youtu.be/B_xqX4_Qe9E?t=646

The R5 does not have a full-frame oversampled 4K 60 HQ mode. I think that this is because the sensor is not capable of a full pixel readout at 60 fps. So the full-frame 4K 60 mode is pixel binned (or some other form of on-sensor sub-sampling). The R5 does have an 4K 60 APS-C crop mode which is oversampled from a 5.1K sensor readout. While this mode overheats internally (as indicated in the above chart), I don't believe it has been tested again for external recording without cards in the camera. If the 4K 30 HQ tests are any indication, this could very well extend the external recording time in oversampled 4K 60 APS-C mode considerably. It may end up turning out that all of the video modes that can be recorded externally on the R5 will work for extended periods of time when cards are removed from the camera.

Anyway, I'm not trying to convince anyone that external recording is the way to go. It clearly has its drawbacks. Just trying to convey the current limitations of the camera as I understand them.

It seems we've gotten kind of side-tracked on this thread about the new RF cinema cameras though. Presumably the cinema cameras will be able to record continuously without any time limits or overheating concerns. The dual-gain C300 MKIII sensor will likely have better dynamic range than the R5 sensor as well. It is Super35 sized rather than full-frame, but you could always use a Speed Booster with the RF mount if needed.

 

[scorsesefan]

Intriguing. That patent diagram looks kinda like a Hasselblad 500c LOL. Glad I saved my pennies, looks like Canon has some interesting toys coming... But 8 bit in 2020? C'mon. I agree with Dan that you can get a great image in 8 bit if you light/expose correctly, but now is not the time for Canon to be holding back on specs. Especially with Sony raising the bar with the A7SIII and their R5/6 missteps. At least give us 4:2:0 10 bit like Fuji does...

 

[ahalpert]

4K 60 external not overheating was reported in Gerald Undone's original test numbers:

Thanks for the info. Some things I overlooked here.

According to NorBro, 4K60p cropped is not full read-out, it's softer.

Also, I like speedbooster but I have run into issues when shooting into extreme backlight and had to pull it and use a regular adapter. Also, it raises the purchase cost about 12%.

But I'll admit - the R5 may be more usable (with an external recorder) than we first knew.

I'll have to give it a think. Still leaning A7SIII. But I have Canon lenses and the R5 can look really good

I wonder if the R6 can do the same external recording magic...

 

[davedv]

According to NorBro, 4K60p cropped is not full read-out, it's softer.

That's strange, the official record limits from Canon clearly indicate that the 4K 60fps APS-C crop mode is oversampled from a 5.1K sensor readout like the 4K 24fps APS-C crop mode. So I would have expected the video quality to be largely similar between the two. Unless Canon is mis-representing the sensor readout in this mode. But I'm not sure I have actually seen any video quality comparisons between 4K 60fps APS-C crop mode and the 4K 30 APS-C crop mode posted online yet.



Someone definitely needs to test the cardless external recording on the R6, but since the production R6 hasn't started shipping yet, fewer people actually have the cameras.

 

[ozmorphasis]

Thanks for the info. Some things I overlooked here.

According to NorBro, 4K60p cropped is not full read-out, it's softer.

Also, I like speedbooster but I have run into issues when shooting into extreme backlight and had to pull it and use a regular adapter. Also, it raises the purchase cost about 12%.

But I'll admit - the R5 may be more usable (with an external recorder) than we first knew.

I'll have to give it a think. Still leaning A7SIII. But I have Canon lenses and the R5 can look really good

I wonder if the R6 can do the same external recording magic...

As someone who has been using speedboosters constantly on my m43 cameras for nearly all of my bread and butter work, I REALLY look forward to not needing them. In addition to some optical shortcomings, I fantasize about one day having a mount that feels secure and professional. Follow focus? Image shift. Bump it the wrong way? Image shift. It really just feels like a major compromise. I won't be going PL, but at least a solid EF or E connection without any appreciable play/flex is something that I have been feeling like I am missing out on since I've been playing the frankenrig game. This is also what makes me a bit leery about the A7s3 as well. I know for a fact that I don't want to exclusively use Native E mount lenses. That puts me back into the adapter world.

 

[Rdouthit]

Shot 4K 150fps BRAW for the first time today with my Ursa 4.6 G2. C-AF would be nice, but damn if that isn’t a great image even at crazy frame rates. ( and yes, a couple clips took up 30GB even at 8:1 compression.) I shot with an FS7 for a while, and have owned almost all the A7 cameras, but looking at both Canon and Sony current cinema camera offerings, I decided to pull the trigger on an Ursa G2 this week and love it. It will be the A cam on some new shows I’m filming this fall and a special shot cam (slow mo) for my YouTube show.

 

[morgan_moore]

If I start buying e-mount lenses for an a7siii, am I investing in the wrong direction?

I was going to say 'absolutely'. To me there is just something slightly childish about sony and thier cameras (apart from F35 and beta etc). One thing about Canon is the great range of used lenses and ability to sell lenses especially the 'basic' pro lenses 70-200,24-70,16-35.
I mean this new mirrorless.. its still a sony with that horrid backwheel and toy build.

But what we have forgotton here is the 'fx6'

I think my next camera will be a RF300 or the FX6 - both will stand or fall on how they are crippled to protect thier big brothers.

--

DO you know what you actually want and why?

I do..
<$7k
4k60/10bit
200,2k
Af, AF and good AF.
Smaller form than Fs7
Lower mass than FS7
AF lens available 24-120 or 16-80 (FF or S35)
EVF?

Why do I want that? well AF helps for actuality as does the ability to carry the thing.
Mass transfers along.. like having a 75mm sticks - everything gets lighter
AF means you can get away with a worse (smaller lighter) monitor and lenses with horrid focus throw.

 

[scorsesefan]

^ Agreed, the FX6 is what I want... I've invested heavily in E glass and for the most part I have no regrets. The Tamron 28-75 is a killer lens with its only weakness being lack of IS. I disagree with Sony cams being "childish". IMO Sony is better in usable form factor for my needs (run n' gun) than Canon. You can run with the FS5 all day and the FS7 is pretty much an unparalleled success as a shoulder cam. The menus and image are a different animal. The former Sony has seemed to fix in the A7SIII and the latter is somewhat a question of taste, although I do prefer the Canon look for skin tones...

If the FX6 comes in between $6-$7K with similar specs to the R300 I'm in...

 

[ahalpert]

That's strange, the official record limits from Canon clearly indicate that the 4K 60fps APS-C crop mode is oversampled from a 5.1K sensor readout like the 4K 24fps APS-C crop mode. So I would have expected the video quality to be largely similar between the two. Unless Canon is mis-representing the sensor readout in this mode. But I'm not sure I have actually seen any video quality comparisons between 4K 60fps APS-C crop mode and the 4K 30 APS-C crop mode posted online yet.

I haven't seen the cropped 4K60p footage either, but I asked NorBro (who has an R5) and he said it was not the same quality as cropped 4K24p. We'll know more soon.

Meanwhile - the R6 probably has better FF 4k60p quality it would seem? If I could stomach using an external recorder, the R6 seems interesting...

 

[ahalpert]

I think my next camera will be a RF300 or the FX6 - both will stand or fall on how they are crippled to protect thier big brothers.

--

DO you know what you actually want and why?

Does the FX9 have equally good autofocus as the A7RIV? I've heard that the C500ii has worse autofocus than the R5 and that Canon cinema cameras generally underperform their stills cameras for autofocus. (So lame!) I would imagine the FX6 would have FX9 AF.

What I want is 2 matching cameras - 1 little one with great AF to go on my gimbal, and 1 shoulder-mount-friendly "proper" video camera with XLR inputs. Ideally, they'd both have ND.

So, for me, depending on its specs, the FX6 might fall through the cracks. Perhaps not as big, serious and shoulder-mount friendly as the FX9. And not as small, lightweight, and no IBIS like the A7SIII.

I already have an FS7 that I'm thinking of sticking with. So for me, it looks like FS7/A7SIII... or maybe I get an R6 and eventually move to R300/R6. I have EF lenses, which is a consideration.

 

[scorsesefan]

If Sony or Canon can come up with a cinema camera with this form factor I'd buy either one: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...reatures_cclb001_lovable_lady_bug_posing.html

 

[ahalpert]

If Sony or Canon can come up with a cinema camera with this form factor I'd buy either one: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...reatures_cclb001_lovable_lady_bug_posing.html

Yeah that'd be really helpful for those uncomfortable look-into-the-lens shoots

But that's just a wrap-around prop for your lens, right? So, even the Alexa LF could become a Lovable Ladybug camera

 

[Run&Gun]

If Sony or Canon can come up with a cinema camera with this form factor I'd buy either one: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...reatures_cclb001_lovable_lady_bug_posing.html

Yeah that'd be really helpful for those uncomfortable look-into-the-lens shoots

But that's just a wrap-around prop for your lens, right? So, even the Alexa LF could become a Lovable Ladybug camera

Why not get the combo pack for multi-cam shoots?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1528326-REG/camera_creatures_lovable_ladybug_and_perky.html

 

[NorBro]

I haven't seen the cropped 4K60p footage either, but I asked NorBro (who has an R5) and he said it was not the same quality as cropped 4K24p. We'll know more soon.

Meanwhile - the R6 probably has better FF 4k60p quality it would seem? If I could stomach using an external recorder, the R6 seems interesting...

When did I say that? The oversampled 4K/60p crop is exactly the same as the oversampled 24p/30p.

You asked about the low-quality full-frame 4K/60p (IIRC), and I said it's not any better and just like the other low-quality full-frame 24p/30p.

And I mentioned HQ is only 24p/30p.

 

[NorBro]

P.S. I guess you're referring to this...

I meant "across the board" as in across each mode. So quality stays consistent in each mode (good in 5.1K crop and bad in binned full-frame).

Wishing for an oversampled 5.1K 120p means I think it's good!

NorBro - did you ever run an IQ test of 4k60 FF vs crop? I'm guessing FF looks like low-quality 4K and crop looks like 5.1K oversample but I'd love to know

It's the same across the board...FF low-quality, unfortunately. Wish there was an oversample for 120p in few second bursts, but that slow-motion is still great to have regardless.

 

[puredrifting]

Unless you have skies or gradients?!?!

For client work, those are comparitvely rare for me. Mostly interviews and b-roll shot on stages, conference rooms or small insert stages. Table top and green screen too.
But I try to avoid shooting events although I do get a lot of skies and gradients in my own documentary work. But I have RAW for those so not a problem. But of course,
every one of us seem to shoot different things in different environments.

So your clients actually specify and ask for 10-bit? Wow. Most of our corporate and web clients don't even know what that means.

After years of shooting with adapters with M43, Fuji and a few others, I really dislike adapters. They are never as good as native mount, although
I am sure the Canon adapters for EF on RF cameras work much better than theird party adapters. I have no plans to replace all 13 of my Canon lenses
with RF, at least so far, as I want to wait to see if Canon ever implements RF Cine lenses, compact servos like the 18-80. WIthout those, I am kind of
over still lenses for video. They work but they are not as "creative" as real cine lenses for creatively working with focus. They can get a subject in focus
and track it, but when you want to get a manual focus aesthetic, AF lenses are useless because they are all focus by wire. If and when Canon goes all in
on RF and makes Cine lenses with RF, then I might have more interest. But if I am stuck with still lenses for AF, little to no motivation to switch to RF mount
when I own a pile of EF lenses.

This may help you to make a decision about IF you even should buy ANY new camera. I have a friend who works for the County, but she is totally, 100% tapped
into FEMA, the FEDs, State and County government, she runs emergency services. The word in government circles is that we are in for 1.5 to 2 more years of
Quarantine realistically, by the time a vaccine is developed, thoroughly tested and vetted and they get enough vaccines into the populace that won't refuse the
vaccine. So if the Quarantine lasts until well into 2022, do you want to drop thousands of dollars into new cameras of any kind when you already have cameras that can
make you money? Does your business model take into account society being in Quarantine for years? if it does and you can make money, go for it. If you aren't sure,
I wouldn't be splurging money on production gear.

My friend says that this is not being put out into the media because the civil unrest would make what we have been through so far this year look like childs play. They will
keep extending it, extending it and just doing it incrementally so as to not cause widespread panic. I don't factually know this to be true but as my friend coordinates all
emergency response for 6 counties in Southern California, she is the person who would know what is really going on more than anyone else I know. I have heard similar
from a source I know who works pretty high up with the DOD. What we are in now is the new normal for at least the next 1.5 to 2 years. So take that into account before
loading up credit cards or spending your savings.