Canon to stop producing new EF designs.

[John Brawley]

I've always been surprised that there aren't more F-mount lower-end cinema cameras as the mount has a pretty decent lineup.

Well historically they always were frowned upon by many because they focus in the wrong direction.

That's easier to work around these days, but it was one of the main reasons they never got very far amongst moving image makers....

JB

 

[Razz16mm]

You might need to worry about EF lenses if Canon stops making them altogether, but they are still producing new EF cameras. The lens lineup is mature.
I understand the ratonale behind concentrating limited development resources on the newer RF mount where it is most needed.
A more pertinent question is what will Canon do with their earlier mirrorless M series? Will the EOL that one?

 

[jb.]

Your point is taken but it is not a one size fits all situation. Transcoding takes time. So you are trading your time for a fast computer. Yes, fast storage is a side expense but the file sizes will be a lot larger. So your fast storage needs to be "a lot of fast storage" if your are shooting anything longer in nature. Then there are the backups. Do you backup the huge files or the originals since the originals did not get used in the edit? So now you need 2X the fast storage which probably puts you closer to the faster computer...

I prefer to work with the original files because they will never look any better than they do out of the camera. The NLE will work with the files in the color space/bit depth chosen, so transcoding will do nothing but make it easier to process and maybe degrade it a tiny amount. And the backups are smaller and consistent. It is probably a wash in the end.

Actually you're trading money for time. If you absolutely need quick turnaround on H.265 files, then maybe you need the $15,000 computer. But very few people actually need that. They don't immediately edit their footage and could easily batch transcode to a more edit-friendly format.

I bring my camera files into my computer (a base iMac Pro with 64GB of RAM) and let it transcode using EditReady overnight after a day of shooting. In the morning (which is the quickest I'm going to touch those files anyway) I have ProRes master files that edit like butter in FCPX. This process is all automated, by the way. I dump the files to a smallish (8TB) RAID array on my desktop machine where they're transcoded automatically and then both the camera-original files and the transcodes are moved to my NAS for archiving, original files are backed up to LTO tape, and the transcodes are moved to my editing drive where they can be imported into Final Cut. After the edit is done, I generally throw out the ProRes files. They're trivial to re-create if I need them.

Why would I need to expend a lot of effort backing up the ProRes files? They're transient while the project is being edited. I save the project file and the original camera files... I can make the ProRes files again if I need to (with an identical filename too!) and just drop them back into the edit.

Yes, the files are larger. But storage is CHEAP. I have a hair over 200TB between two NASs ("hot" and "cold"... basically stuff from this year and stuff that's older) and it wasn't that expensive (less than a good camera).

Again, if you don't have the time to let transcodes go during off-time then your choice is made for you... but that's a very rare use case. Other than that, transcoding and then editing in a more edit-friendly intra-frame codec is going to make life a lot easier regardless of the computer you're on.

 

[Bassman2003]

You are not wrong but it depends on the type of projects one is shooting. And what computer costs $15,000? I built my 10 core Intel I9 system for $2,000-$3,000. And it would not be that difficult to spend $2,000 on storage. So I am not seeing the huge pricing gap. But I don't disagree with your point, it just does not work for my workflow.

 

[DLD]

... A more pertinent question is what will Canon do with their earlier mirrorless M series? Will the EOL that one?

Off the size of discounts being offered, M series and EFS lenses seem to be EOL.

They'll need to keep EF in production until they do away with the EF entirely ... and then some. The catch here is that, outside of the 1D XMKIII, there won't be any new EF cameras in the future. Rumors have 2020 releases of a high MPX "pro" camera, EOS R MKII and a sub-$1,000/EOS RP version. As Canon Rumors speculates, sub-$1,000 RF-mount should be priced far below RP to make sense. So, let's say $600. That sets up the photocentric RF lineup : $600 APS-C "Rebel", $1,000 FF RP, $1,800 FF R and ~ $3,000-$3,300 FF RS (CR's quite plausible code name, which may or may not be the actual model moniker). Additionally, I assume there'll be a C-100 MKIII (code name) in RF some time later. Once the full line in RF is in production, the EF mount will be eased out, with the sole remainder being 1DX MKIII for the pros.

PS. Since lenses require more manual work than the bodies anyway, any photo-video manufacturer can stop/start it depending upon the demand anyway.

 

[Tom Roper]

https://www.redsharknews.com/production/item/6937-the-ef-mount-is-not-dead-this-is-why

 

[Samuel H]

The M series is surprisingly popular in Japan, I think they'll keep it alive, at least there.

 

[Razz16mm]

Ultimately production decisions come down to market demand.

One could conceivably produce a beamsplitter optical finder in an RF to EF adapter. Similar to Sony A series.
But with increasingly high resolution, high brightness, HDR capable OLED finders I doubt it would find much of a market.

 

[DLD]

https://www.redsharknews.com/production/item/6937-the-ef-mount-is-not-dead-this-is-why

Phil makes a decent, but not a very thorough, argument that ignores the dire straits that the photo-video industry is finding itself in. Obviously, smartphones are destroying its sales and profit margins and the camera themselves don't deliver sufficient improvements at a pace that the smartphones do. To wit, recently announced XT-200 and D780 each have a 24 MPX sensor while new smartphones are going 48-64-108. Plus zoom. Plus 8K. Plus selfies. Plus wide angle. Plus, all that smartphony stuff. Which leaves no reason to even bother with an ILC unless you're a pro and that is a very small niche market.

The M series is surprisingly popular in Japan, I think they'll keep it alive, at least there.

The Japanese like very compact size cameras for their compact size hands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_human_height_by_country

Ultimately production decisions come down to market demand...

Which will probably end with the full frame A6000 size model with 60-100 MPX sensor and a compact 28-70 F4 zoom. The DSLR's are too large, too bulky and too long in the tooth.

PS. D780 is incorporating some "mirrorless" technology but it's still old tech at heart.

 

[Guest]

I think everyone here understands what it means, but the click bait culture effects even our industry news, and we have to have conversations with clients about these things.

No one here is worried about EF for the next decade, as there are plenty of great options, will have continued service, and if one wants to move into higher quality and more modern features, they will probably be buying into RF or whatever.

I still use 40 yo glass.

 

[puredrifting]

RF mount lenses are meaningless for most of us until the Komodo and at least one or two EOS Cinema Cameras with RF mount are actually shipping. At Canon and RED's pace, that may not be for years.

 

[Run&Gun]

1)...Which leaves no reason to even bother with an ILC unless you're a pro and that is a very small niche market.

2)The DSLR's are too large, too bulky and too long in the tooth.

1) Or you want some real lenses to use.

2) Too large and too bulky for who? Sony A7 style cameras suck ergonomically. I don't shoot stills professionally, but I love the feel of a Canon 5D series.

 

[DLD]

... I don't shoot stills professionally, but I love the feel of a Canon 5D series.

To reiterate - the market is driven by the Best Buy consumer, not by the AbelCine pro. It's the consumer who provides funding for the R&D and the overhead. A photography/videography professional number is in thousands, not millions, and CaNikSon is basically a consumer goods manufacturer. For the "big hands" consumers, deep pocketed enthusiasts and the working pros, there will be larger bodies - likely in medium format, that will soon be selling at the price levels of yesterday's DSLR's.

Canon's RF lineup is in its nascent stage and will take another year to a year and a half to be complete. If Nikon's Z6 + Ninja V ProRes is the current standard bearer, the next generation of CaNikSon sub-$3,000 models should have some sort of a Raw recording to please the video aficionados. The following step will be 4K/6K Raw for under a grand.

But 99.9999% will be perfectly satisfied with their 8K smartphone.

 

[DLD]

RF mount lenses are meaningless for most of us until the Komodo and at least one or two EOS Cinema Cameras with RF mount are actually shipping. At Canon and RED's pace, that may not be for years.

Or Sony could jump into the medium format, which shouldn't be all that difficult for them since they already make the sensors for the MF manufacturers Phase One, Pentax, Hasselblad and Fuji. Within a year, their non-compete agreement should expire and they just might release a 100 MPX MF model for about $5,000, with Fuji and Hasselblad getting the 150 MPX sensor that's currently available on Phase One only. It's not a prediction but it's trending that way. And then things might get very dicey for the EF glass - no new cameras with the EF mount will be in development and the performance will be inferior to the new state-of-the-art RF pieces such as 28-70 F2. With the full frame that's currently about 15% of the total units shipped getting squeezed out by the higher end MF bodies.

The above is speculation but the one that plays into Sony's favor ... which is exactly the way Sony wants it.

 

[IanTheM]

Or Sony could jump into the medium format, which shouldn't be all that difficult for them since they already make the sensors for the MF manufacturers Phase One, Pentax, Hasselblad and Fuji. Within a year, their non-compete agreement should expire and they just might release a 100 MPX MF model for about $5,000, with Fuji and Hasselblad getting the 150 MPX sensor that's currently available on Phase One only. It's not a prediction but it's trending that way. And then things might get very dicey for the EF glass - no new cameras with the EF mount will be in development and the performance will be inferior to the new state-of-the-art RF pieces such as 28-70 F2. With the full frame that's currently about 15% of the total units shipped getting squeezed out by the higher end MF bodies.

The above is speculation but the one that plays into Sony's favor ... which is exactly the way Sony wants it.

I'm sure that Fuji won over a lot of people who were on the fence about Medium Format with the GFX, since they brought the price down, but I don't think it's that big of a win compared to when Sony went Full Frame and brought FF mirrorlesss to a huge swathe of the market. The fact is that MF lenses cost a lot, and there tends to be no reason to make cheap smaller lenses. Sony was lucky that Canon's entire lens lineup was more of less compatible with E Mount to make up for the lack of native lenses when they started, but if they suddenly went and created a MF body with very expensive lenses then it wouldn't exactly start out strong because there's no healthy lens ecosystem to fill the gap. I can see 150 MP full frame being the thing that Canon and Sony are more likely to pursue releasing.

 

[DLD]

I'm sure that Fuji won over a lot of people who were on the fence about Medium Format with the GFX, since they brought the price down, but I don't think it's that big of a win compared to when Sony went Full Frame and brought FF mirrorlesss to a huge swathe of the market. The fact is that MF lenses cost a lot, and there tends to be no reason to make cheap smaller lenses. Sony was lucky that Canon's entire lens lineup was more of less compatible with E Mount to make up for the lack of native lenses when they started, but if they suddenly went and created a MF body with very expensive lenses then it wouldn't exactly start out strong because there's no healthy lens ecosystem to fill the gap. I can see 150 MP full frame being the thing that Canon and Sony are more likely to pursue releasing.

I agree (in general) but MF is far more limited in its applications vs. full frame - studio, architecture, landscape - so, a series of primes just might suffice for their first generation. It'll still leave full frame for the mass market but the elite photographers will be tempted.

And, if one expects 8K to arrive sooner than later, then the same might be expected of the MF.

PS. 8K should arrive with the next generation of smartphones. Samsung's Galaxy 20 official announcement is in two weeks. And, in general, Sony must want to present a competitive model to Alexa65. It already has a broadcast 8K camera. It may as well make one for cinema as well.

PPS. To borrow from other posts/posters, Sony does want to sell 8K TV's.

 

[Guest]

Wasn’t the F65 an 8K camera?

 

[DLD]

Wasn’t the F65 an 8K camera?

Sony claimed it was but the sensor was 17.6 MPX and read out 4K 4:2:2.

I predicted the sensor, which was ahead of its time, would make it into other Sony cameras down the road but I was wrong. Sony never really replaced F5 or F55 and F65 never really took off either.

 

[Guest]

Sony claimed it was but the sensor was 17.6 MPX and read out 4K 4:2:2.

I predicted the sensor, which was ahead of its time, would make it into other Sony cameras down the road but I was wrong. Sony never really replaced F5 or F55 and F65 never really took off either.

True.

 

[Run&Gun]

Sony claimed it was but the sensor was 17.6 MPX and read out 4K 4:2:2.

I predicted the sensor, which was ahead of its time, would make it into other Sony cameras down the road but I was wrong. Sony never really replaced F5 or F55 and F65 never really took off either.

The Venice is kind of viewed as the successor to and step-up from the F55 and technically, the F55 is still available for purchase as new, which makes it a current model, regardless of it's age/date of introduction.