AndreeOnline
Veteran
I don't doubt it.
There was a physician once that shared your interest. He even made a scale, but I don't think it was logarithmic: the Bristol stool scale.
Canon R5 Announced with 8k
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I don't doubt it.
There was a physician once that shared your interest. He even made a scale, but I don't think it was logarithmic: the Bristol stool scale.
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Ha, never thought i would see you exaggerate!
Yes, but i find the Alexa to be the bare minimum. Not excess. So every camera below that gets farther from what the human eye sees. Why do you think Red was so overshadowed by the Alexa? Dynamic Range was a huge part of it. Because for naturalism, the Alexa is really the minimum, not the Holy Grail.
We can surely make beautiful images with any camera. No camera is a limitation to an artist. You are an artist.
But the human eye does have a bell curve that all human eyes function within, and cameras have to be able to trick the eye.
Ofcourse when cameras are limited we learn to shoot within or around those limits to get what we want to achieve. That is why so many cinematographers were quite amazing. “Taking of Pelham 123” was shot on iso100 film stock and Anamorphic lenses... underground. Not many of use could do that.
So, there is no such thing as “limits” if you don’t mind working. But there are such things as facts. And the fact is, people quickly key into things like Red’s and Canons looking more like “video”. Sure, they can mimic old vintage film and people seem to enjoy that too, but it is another thing for a clean image to mot look crunchy when it is below the Alexa level of dynamic range.... there was a reason Arri went with bigger pixels and dual gain readout: dynamic range mattered to film makers.
Not to continually throw that name around, but dynamic range is so important for video cameras to be able to look more natural. We can start complaining it is too much when they start claiming 30stops DR. But 16? 16 would be awesome. But because manufactures, including Canon have started inflating their DR numbers, by that metric we need to get to “20” stops DR.
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Yup
ahalpert
Major Contributor
People on this forum have convinced me that "highlight roll-off" is an illusion in the sense that you can shift your ISO and allocate more stops of DR to your highlights. And so what matters at the end of the day is total DR. But I'm open to discussing it further since I spent the last 10 years believing the opposite
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But even more than flexibility, DR adds life to a digital image. In order to have a natural organic image even in high contrast scenes, there needs to be additional stops for a good long roll off. The Alexa can help with flexibility, but that totally ignores the fact that the image is better because of the long roll off, not because it gives options in post, but because it even captures beautifully in camera closer to the way cinematographers want to see. Even though RED’s are very close in DR, they do not capture the same look, even in post. Full stop. That isn’t about flexibility, that is about image quality and roll off being a big part of that.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Yes, this is more fun
AndreeOnline
Veteran
But this is what I mean. I don't think I'm exaggerating, but I should clarify that I don't say 12 about the same camera that someone calls 18.5. I just prefer talking about 12-14, whereas some like 15-18 better. These are the same ranges to me. Depends on how you measure.
But internet sure has its fair share of users who like to quote the high number for brand A and the low number for brand B in the same sentence. At least stick to one of the ranges.
AndreeOnline
Veteran
This seems like two sides of the same coin to me. Total DR is the number you want. That's linear. How it looks SOOC, or at a certain ISO is up to the manufacturer.
Then you can adjust the curve to your liking. Either manually, or by using presets like the IPPT2 presets from RED. Or other transforms. Plenty of options.
Just like you said earlier: more DR = smoother rolloff.
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Because they are technically right, but using technical accuracy to ignore the primal truth: Total DR number is a huge factor in available roll-off.
Digital sensors don't inherently have much of a roll off by human eye or film standards. So, in that way, "there is no highlight roll off". But if one camera has 8stops, another 13, and another 15, which one has more left over stops for roll-off?
Our eyes really pay attention to the mids. We are annoyed by clippy highlights and noisy shadows, but if the shadows and highlights are not awful, we really hone in and appreciate the mids. So, we're really looking at only needing 8 stops of goodness before we really start going into extreme roll off. So, even if we had a 30 stops DR camera, we would still only be mostly concerned with the 8stops in the middle, or even less. The rest would be roll off, and I am pretty sure no one needs that much roll off. Scientists, maybe?
However, at 14 to 20stops DR we are in a very natural amount of latitude. The real world the way our eyes see it, is fine there. We have already seen that the Alexa does fine for most things. And modern film can do 11stops over and still have details, whereas digital would be completely blown.
So, yeah, digital sensors don't have "room-off" by they do get roll-off applied somewhere along the image chain.
The idea that roll off is an illusion is very much a technicality, but in common language, it is misleading. Because cameras have roll off applied, unless shooting log, and even then it might have some built in, in particular the shadows, actually.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
As far as "too much" dynamic range, the perfect camera is capable of infinite dynamic range, but also has a setting where you can limit the dynamic range to however many stops you want. Sometimes blown highlights look better than highlights that are not blown.
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Shaking my head.
All that wishful thinking about adding the curve you like did not save RED cameras from looking less natural than the Alexa.
We know that you can choose to shoot scenes that have lower contrast shot with a Camera with lower DR specs, and in THAT situation you can add the curve you want, and get almost any look you want, since nothing is being captured that challenges the cameras 11 or 12 stops DR capability. However, the second you get that camera out into the real world and try to shoot and light by eye, that camera falls apart and looks like video.
Many of us like long roving shots, and those shots are challenging for lower DR cameras. DR matters, and having the extra stops for roll off in hight contrast scenes is important for naturalism.
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True
ahalpert
Major Contributor
For SOOC? If you have infinite DR, you can clip it yourself in post
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Well, in this case, sunsets are orange, so a strong orange-in-the-highlights grade can look right. I like your grade on it. Edgy stylized. Looks great.
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Haha, I am going to steal that. "Hey gang, clip it in post!" "don't worry about it, we'll clip it in post"
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
Yeah, SOOC is where it's at, though. It's not like I want to give some random colorist creative choices for what I am DPing.
And if I am the random colorist, it's not like I want to be spending extra time in post when I could be playing airsoft.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Always so hard to tell if you're joking.
I shoot a lot of SOOC but one can finesse the look more in post.
But yeah - SOOC for life
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
On an unrelated note, one of the most confusing and mysterious aspects of DVXuser for me has been which person is James in his avatar photo.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
Not exactly joking. But yeah, if a DP has a good line of communication and control of post and working with a good colorist, then SOOC is less important. Otherwise, SOOC or die, even on a big budget shoot.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
You're right. That is unrelated. I figured it was the guy on the left since he figures more prominently. Maybe James would know.