Canon files patent for RAW video recording

I've said it many times before, RAW will be coming down the pipeline from the big guns. Is not a questions of if but when. In the not so distant future 4K RAW will be as common as AVCHD and company. Heck, my Vegas Video Pro already can handle 4K RAW!
 
Wow big news. If they bring it out in a camera this year, they are fast. I don't expect but it will make me feel sorry for Nikon, running behind the facts.
 
Doesn't Red already own patents to RAW recording? I'm just thinking about how messy something like this can get, especially with the current onslaught of patent wars between companies like Apple, Motorola, HTC, Google, and even Kodak.
 
RED may have patents on RAW recording, but only for its own code. There was Cineform RAW before RED even came out with theirs, used on the SI-2K.
There's also the Sony F65 and others which also shoot raw. Nothing proprietary about the concept.

My Bet is that it will be 2 years before we see it in a C3XX video camcorder. Then later one of their cinema series DSLRs.
 
Having slogged through the patent it looks as though Canon are using a long GOP strategy with their Raw recording, interpolating lower resolution frames in between full resolution frames. Unfortunately there were many referances to drawings that didn't appear in teh text.

And no, Red doesn't own patents on raw recording per se which has been going on before Red was born.

Dave

Edit, Doctor Wu got in while I was typing to make the point about Raw recording
 
Looks like they know what the film maker wants.... high resolution, high frame rate and reduced data transfer rate in RAW recording.
 
Hi The patent is only on using raws in temporarely changing resolutions and later on debayering regain the missing information of lower resolution raws from preceding and following raws, this is like shotting one large raw then one small raw then a large raw again etc.
This will fool users to think that there is a higher resolution all the time.
This of cause does not touch Reds patent for raw compression and does not really bring much lighter loads on storage devices as does REDS patent.

just my two Euro cent Matthias
 
kylevant said:
Doesn't Red already own patents to RAW recording? I'm just thinking about how messy something like this can get, especially with the current onslaught of patent wars between companies like Apple, Motorola, HTC, Google, and even Kodak.
Click to expand...

I believe Red has patents on wavelet-based COMPRESSED RAW video recording, which reduces file size, which becomes very important when you record
4K and higher resolutions in the future.

Sony and Arri have UNcompressed RAW, which explains why Sony F65 uses 1TB media while maximum Red media is 256GB
and ships Epic-M with 128GB SSD...
 
zijital said:
As seen with their 2010 CF300 response to the 2005 HVX & 2007 EX1. My guess is we'll be lucky to see something by 2017.
Click to expand...

Hmmmm....I wasn't aware that the HVX & EX1 had broadcast standard codecs recorded to cheap non proprietary CF cards. I learn something new every day....
 
simonpwood said:
Hmmmm....I wasn't aware that the HVX & EX1 had broadcast standard codecs recorded to cheap non proprietary CF cards. I learn something new every day....
Click to expand...

That wasn't the point. The point was how long it took them to answer to solid state recording.
 
You're assuming that Canon feels the need to answer to other companies. Rather they seem to design at their own pace and on a different tangent. They certainly don't feel the need to over hype the next big thing the way some companies feel compelled to.

When they are ready to introduce RAW they will do it, but not in response to another design.
 
Gary Huff said:
Canon is always in response, they just take their time. Do you think the C300 would be released if the F3 didn't exist? If the AF-100 didn't exist?
Click to expand...

I think you've confused your timeline there. The C300 is the evolution of the DSLR craze, started by the 5DMkII. The success of the 5D spawned the F3 & AF100.
 
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Wow, this Canon patent is actually very clever.

RED Epic shoots 300fps at 1K (edit: whoops 2K - but a soft an noisy 2K at that)... which is nice for motion but crap for detail. Also, it is cropped.

Imagine you could shoot at say 240fps 1K... but:
- bin or line skip, so that there is no crop
- every 5th frame is at full 5K resolution.

It wouldn't take that much disk space.

Now... in software you could use Twixtor on the 5K frames... but guide it with the motion vectors from the 240fps 1K frames. Or blend a little of the 1K frames in.

And also, you could choose AFTER THE FACT whether to use the normal 48fps stream OR the 240fps version.

Hmm, sounds kinda nice.

J Bellari said:
I believe Red has patents on wavelet-based COMPRESSED RAW video recording, which reduces file size, which becomes very important when you record
4K and higher resolutions in the future.
Click to expand...

They do... but again I'm not sure how this will stand up seeing as Cineform did wavelet-compressed RAW before they did.

J Bellari said:
Sony and Arri have UNcompressed RAW, which explains why Sony F65 uses 1TB media while maximum Red media is 256GB
and ships Epic-M with 128GB SSD...
Click to expand...

True in Arri's case. But in Sony's case... they also designed their sensor so that it perfectly matches 4:2:2 YUV sampling. Eg 1 green pixel per pixel... and red and blue every 2nd pixel.

So if they save as 4:2:2 compressed... they are could actually save compressed RAW. Think about it.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
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this patent seems to be great for high fps footage

but for regular footage, I'd like to see standard wavelet compression, like with Cineform RAW, instead of this multiple-subsampling-stream thing

on the SI-2K, with Cineform RAW, the 2048x1152, 10-bit, 24fps stream ends up at 114 Mb/s (14.25 MB/s) (i.e. 5:1 compression ratio)
for a 4096x2048, 12-bit, 24fps stream, you'd end up at 496 Mb/s (60 MB/s), which sounds pretty nice (although it means only 18min on a 64 GB card)

it's when you start cranking up the fps when you get into deep trouble, and there this canon thing could be helpful

in any case, it's nice to see them looking into this



edit:
do we really really need 4K? I'd rather go RAW first, then 4K
at 2500x1400 (nice Bayer pattern for final 2K images), 12-bit, 24fps, Cineform RAW compression at 5:1 would lead to 126 Mb/s (25 MB/s, 42 minutes per 64 GB card)
push that to 48fps and it's still pretty manageable
 
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It is all a matter of evolution. It takes time to develop any new technology or process. Once the brilliant minds behind the development of other RAW alternatives, and perhaps with the help of some extraterrestial intervention, their will be motion RAW in many different flavors, RED patent notwithstanding. It is all about making money and the big camera companies are very good at that game.
 
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