Can You Use a Shotgun Mic Indoors?

N

norway

Well-known member

I'm still an audio n00b, but as far as I can see (hear) there's very little perceptible benefit to using a pencil mic here?

Also, how would a pencil mic compare to using a lav or a mix of lav+pencil/shotgun mic?
 
I have mixed Lavs and short preferably electret condenser, not DC-biased condenser mics for years and will continue to so. On some productions I've worked on, Lavs were totally not acceptable. Don't run into that objection so much these days. So short shotguns were the go. I find certain locations, hard tile floors, big plate glass widows / walls will determine what mics I will use. Shotguns can really pick up bounce sound in close, hard surroundings. Apart from anything else, a second mic is always a safety back up should the worst happen. Shooting one history doco series, we had to interview a lot of WWII survivors. I wasn't too keen on having to mic up old gents and some old ladies in their nineties with lav mics. A bit undignified for them, and I wouldn't ask those dear old things to go through the fiddling around of micing them up in their finest Sunday Crinoline dresses. :)

Certain lavs can sound very tight and close and have good sound rejection of other surrounding noises, so nearly always a good choice for a starting point for decent audio recording. So much depends on the frequency response of the mics you are using in combination with the type of voice you are recording. Sennheiser's frequency caps can help in certain more muffled situations on their MKE series mics if you want to boost higher frequencies.

I don't use pencil mics much as I find you have to be fairly close to your subject with them as they are not as directional as a short shotgun. That's fine for a close up shot sit down shoot interview, but not so useful if you want to alternate between wider and tighter shots, two shots etc. I sometimes find, when using a pencil mic, it has to be further out from the subject if I suddenly need to have more headroom. If you have to move your mic further out, it effects its pickup pattern. Once I place my mics, I don't want to have to move them. That's my main reason for using a shotgun. A tighter pickup pattern, and it can be used further out, allowing more freedom of shot framing. Thinking more as a cameraman here than as a soundie.

Just one word of advice from someone who has been caught out. Be mindful if mixing hard-wired shotgun mics with a lot of these later Wi-Fi 1.7, 2.4 and 5 Gig mics. Be aware you will have to adjust for delay for some brands between the mics in post if you are using both a boom and a Wi-Fi lav in the mix. For example, the Sennheiser AVX system has a latency of 19ms. On its own this is not really a problem as it's only about 1/2 a frame (PAL land). Though if mixing with a wired mic, there is this slight annoying echo. Easily corrected in post with most NLEs these days.

https://www.sennheiser-sites.com/re...tml#page/AVX/AVX_03_Instructions_EN.3.45.html

Chris Young
 
cyvideo said:
I have mixed Lavs and short preferably electret condenser, not DC-biased condenser mics for years and will continue to so. On some productions I've worked on, Lavs were totally not acceptable. Don't run into that objection so much these days. So short shotguns were the go. I find certain locations, hard tile floors, big plate glass widows / walls will determine what mics I will use. Shotguns can really pick up bounce sound in close, hard surroundings. Apart from anything else, a second mic is always a safety back up should the worst happen. Shooting one history doco series, we had to interview a lot of WWII survivors. I wasn't too keen on having to mic up old gents and some old ladies in their nineties with lav mics. A bit undignified for them, and I wouldn't ask those dear old things to go through the fiddling around of micing them up in their finest Sunday Crinoline dresses. :)

Certain lavs can sound very tight and close and have good sound rejection of other surrounding noises, so nearly always a good choice for a starting point for decent audio recording. So much depends on the frequency response of the mics you are using in combination with the type of voice you are recording. Sennheiser's frequency caps can help in certain more muffled situations on their MKE series mics if you want to boost higher frequencies.

I don't use pencil mics much as I find you have to be fairly close to your subject with them as they are not as directional as a short shotgun. That's fine for a close up shot sit down shoot interview, but not so useful if you want to alternate between wider and tighter shots, two shots etc. I sometimes find, when using a pencil mic, it has to be further out from the subject if I suddenly need to have more headroom. If you have to move your mic further out, it effects its pickup pattern. Once I place my mics, I don't want to have to move them. That's my main reason for using a shotgun. A tighter pickup pattern, and it can be used further out, allowing more freedom of shot framing. Thinking more as a cameraman here than as a soundie.

Just one word of advice from someone who has been caught out. Be mindful if mixing hard-wired shotgun mics with a lot of these later Wi-Fi 1.7, 2.4 and 5 Gig mics. Be aware you will have to adjust for delay for some brands between the mics in post if you are using both a boom and a Wi-Fi lav in the mix. For example, the Sennheiser AVX system has a latency of 19ms. On its own this is not really a problem as it's only about 1/2 a frame (PAL land). Though if mixing with a wired mic, there is this slight annoying echo. Easily corrected in post with most NLEs these days.

https://www.sennheiser-sites.com/re...tml#page/AVX/AVX_03_Instructions_EN.3.45.html

Chris Young
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Thanks, Chris!

I wasn't aware of the frequency response caps – that's a great tip.

I also salute you for making sure the memories of people who lived through WWII are captured for future (and current) generations.
 
I have found a hyper-cardioid to be very useful for indoor type applications. Kind of splitting the difference between a shotgun and a cardioid. My "shotgun" is actually a hyper cardioid in a shotgun body. (AKG C 568-B) The pattern is limited and focused enough but does not suffer as much as with the negatives of a true shotgun. I have recorded music with it as well when I want to highlight a certain instrument but can not get a stand right on it.
 
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Bassman2003 said:
I have found a hyper-cardioid to be very useful for indoor type applications. Kind of splitting the difference between a shotgun and a cardioid. My "shotgun" is actually a hyper cardioid in a shotgun body. (AKG C 568-B) The pattern is limited and focused enough but does not suffer as much as with the negatives of a true shotgun. I have recorded music with it as well when I want to highlight a certain instrument but can not get a stand right on it.
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Sounds like a nice unit Bassman. Must see if I can come across one. :)

Chris Young
 
norway said:

I'm still an audio n00b, but as far as I can see (hear) there's very little perceptible benefit to using a pencil mic here?

Also, how would a pencil mic compare to using a lav or a mix of lav+pencil/shotgun mic?
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I was pleasantly surprised I had the same opinion as Curtis before watching the video.

I have used shotgun mic in the past before I got a small condenser mic and it worked fine. So I agree with his advice if you only have a shotgun then it will most likely get the job done. This is the difference between theory and practice. Back when I first learned of this I did do test in my house and I had to get near a wall and turn the mic in a particular angle to get the effect that is talked about.

I still think it's not a bad idea to add a pencil mic if you have a couple of hundred dollars. The main benefit is their small size and weigh. For interviews the light weight makes it easier to boom, small size makes it easier to pack and keep out of the shot, they even make the interviewee more comfortable.
 
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Bassman2003 said:
My "shotgun" is actually a hyper cardioid in a shotgun body. (AKG C 568-B) The pattern is limited and focused enough but does not suffer as much as with the negatives of a true shotgun.
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All shotgun mics have capsules found in normal SDC mics, usually having hypercardioid or supercardioid polar patterns, with the interference tube length determining directivity (directivity that only applies to higher frequencies). There are a few exceptions, of course, to interference tubes being the only factor where multiple capsules are used to achieve better rejection at lower frequencies such as the Schoeps Super CMIT 2U (280mm) and the Sanken CS-3e (270mm). And, of course, not all interference tubes are what they seem: most obviously the ever-popular Sennheiser MKH416 has its capsule located midway along the apparent interference tube (ditto the Rode NTG3), so many of its tube slots are located to the rear of the capsule, over the preamp stage (and are non-functional).

To return to the OP and Curtis's video: the key thing missing here is movement. Placed carefully, a locked-off shotgun mic can be reasonably successful in a range of seemingly unsuitable interiors (though some will notice the off-axis colouration more than others). Start moving that boom - which is entirely normal, as in any drama and many a doc - then the issues can become far more apparent to all in the changing off-axis sound: that is more evident to all than the sound having a constant off-axis colouration. There is no way round the physics of interference tubes and the odd off-axis response they cause, which is fine if there are no off-axis reflections (i.e. outdoors [though beware of walls, cliffs etc.] or on a sound stage etc.). Which is why hypercardioids and supercardioids are usually preferred when swinging a boom in non-sound stage interiors.

Cheers,

Roland
 
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Thanks for the info! I guess my mic is performing well indoors because it is somewhat of a short "shotgun" along with being a hypercardioid. Always good to know the tech to then apply to usage.
 
I read somewhere that you can improve the off-axis coloration by covering most of the interference tube with heat shrink. Not sure how well that would work in practice though.
 
Imamacuser said:
I read somewhere that you can improve the off-axis coloration by covering most of the interference tube with heat shrink. Not sure how well that would work in practice though.
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More trouble than it's worth in my past experiments and in most cases it sounded worse. An interference tube shotgun can sound very good indoors, but it depends on the room... and placement of course.
 
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