Hey bro we can discuss on here all day, i'm not gonna get sore at you at all. I think its a great discussion and i've had it off line previously and appreciate you bringing it up in the forums. I always appreciate Kholi's input because he doesn't have any skin in the game. I do think he's stingy and should send me a 7d though.
Can you spot the 5DII footage in this Shane Hurlbut feature
- Thread starter f64manray
- Start date
Hey bro we can discuss on here all day, i'm not gonna get sore at you at all. I think its a great discussion and i've had it off line previously and appreciate you bringing it up in the forums. I always appreciate Kholi's input because he doesn't have any skin in the game. I do think he's stingy and should send me a 7d though.
Hey good riddance to the era of the adapter. CFL's and camera bags/flags/stands and traveling light baby!
squig
Veteran
It's impossible to measure "saturation" but I'm an example of somebody who's decision to enter this industry was driven by the DSLR technology. I was a record producer and had been interested in making films for a while and almost took the plunge when the DVX came out but it wasn't until the D90 came along that I finally decided to make the shift.
I was successful in the music business because I understood and was creatively inspired by the technology and was able to remain independent due to the low cost. I'm now using that same model in the film business and DSLRs enable me to compete with the big boys on a very limited budget. Somebody is bound to feel threatened by this, more likely the bean counters than the creatives.
I've been stunned by the idea already, and I can't even find a way to respond to the posts made my CommanderSpike without illustrating a point in a way that people would consider "mean-spirited".
Can you please tell me how you've come to believe that this is possible because of a Camera? The Camera package isn't even the most expensive thing on any production. For the price that you've paid for an MKii you can rent a RED kit that's infinitely better for two thirds of that for an entire MONTH if you ask the right person. That's WITH glass, good support, etc etc.
Please tell me why anyone believes that the camera is going to give you ANY edge in ANY way over ANY thing???? ????
I don't get it.
Maybe because the unwashed masses can now afford to sleep with their camera...Develop close, intimate, personal relationships with them. Access to hands on experience is no longer limited to the privileged few and their chosen assistants. Everyone can practise their art (or craft if you like) on a whim...in available light...in full stealth mode. Isn't that obvious?
Turn and face the strain...
Turn and face the strain...
John Caballero
Veteran
I have to admit that these cameras are very sexy....
squig
Veteran
It's come to my attention that Commanderspike has been banned. Well now I'm offended, he's made valuable contributions to the forum and I've been working with him on a networked feature idea in the DSLR screening room. I did suggest that spike and Kholi's earlier posts be deleted. It's not like Kholi has never offended anyone, there's been plenty of times when he's talked down to me but I have a thick skin and I was like him when I was a bit younger full of enthusiasm which came across as arrogance.
Ok so spike isn't a diplomat but neither is Kholi, the point is neither of them were trying to deliberately offend anybody. We're filmmakers and we all carry the associated ego and bravado baggage that is the nature of the beast. Taking things out of context and blowing them out of proportion is a waste of time.
I could go on for hours about censorship and free speech but I've got other stuff to do so Barry can spike have his voice back? pretty please with sugar on top.
Ok so spike isn't a diplomat but neither is Kholi, the point is neither of them were trying to deliberately offend anybody. We're filmmakers and we all carry the associated ego and bravado baggage that is the nature of the beast. Taking things out of context and blowing them out of proportion is a waste of time.
I could go on for hours about censorship and free speech but I've got other stuff to do so Barry can spike have his voice back? pretty please with sugar on top.
Where is this mentality coming from??? Face what strain?????
There's tons and tons and tons of people out there right now doing this with HVXes and adapters right now.
When I started in '05 with my DVX, I was really pleased with myself that such a novice could make something that looked so much like a real movie.
6 months later that didn't matter because scores of other people had saturated film festivals, producers, etc, also with great looking films.
These new cams allow you to meet the lowest bar a bit easier. They're great. But the "strain" is 4 years old now. We've been working with and making good work within the "strain" for 4 years. The HDSLR's are not a revolution in that sense. They just make an already accessible look easier to get in several ways.
When I started in '05 with my DVX, I was really pleased with myself that such a novice could make something that looked so much like a real movie.
6 months later that didn't matter because scores of other people had saturated film festivals, producers, etc, also with great looking films.
These new cams allow you to meet the lowest bar a bit easier. They're great. But the "strain" is 4 years old now. We've been working with and making good work within the "strain" for 4 years. The HDSLR's are not a revolution in that sense. They just make an already accessible look easier to get in several ways.
John Caballero
Veteran
I've been there and it helps the soul. LOL. I am sure it is a temporary ban. He'll be back. Perhaps a little more humble from the experience. LOL.
squig
Veteran
Sure
Primarily it's a motivational thing, you see some of the footage that is coming from the DSLRs and you think man I can shoot that feature with this thing and get the look I want on a minimal budget. The other motivating factor is you can bypass the funding model. Here in Aus to get a feature off the ground means you have to apply for government funding and jump through a lot of hoops. I find that creatively stifling so the DSLR has helped me to create my own model where I am the studio.
Here in Aus rental is about 10% of the purchase price of the equipment per day, there's just not as much competition here so purchasing is more cost effective. Plus for a film noob like me it's an enabler when you can just pick up a camera anytime and shoot something. I'm at film school now so I have access to cameras but I can learn just as much if not more faster just with a DSLR and dvxuser and google and a few cine books, DVDs etc. With a DSLR you're learning every aspect of cinematography: lenses, filters, DOF etc. Things that cost a lot more with a HD camera and 35mm adapter.
I'll have an edge because I'll have a completed film with a good script that looks like film to the punters (maybe not the peepers) while everyone else is still lining up and jumping throug hoops trying to get their films off the ground.
I know only 2% of indie films get screened in the US so I can understand that people may not believe my model will work but this isn't the US and I plan not to fail.
Jason Ramsey
Admin
You really don't know half the details concerning spike.
2ndly, I banned him, and Barry had absolutely nothing to do with it. Though, I know it goes well with people's conspiracy theories they like to form...
3rdly.. please don't bring the free speech argument in here... whether you agree with any decisions we make or not (even without knowing half the details behind them) free speech and censorship arguments are pretty irrelevant.
This is a privately owned forum. There is nothing stopping you or anyone else from starting up your own little corner of the web and run it however you want. so, no one is censoring you.
I've tried to be very accommodating to everyone as much as I can and create sections that people want so everyone can spread out and not have to step on each other's toes... Some of this crap (from a lot of people) is just starting to get tiresome, and I don't have the energy to want to be very accommodating anymore... folks will start dropping like flies here if necessary unless people learn how to chill out and not get so emotional and personal about this stuff... That goes for EVERYONE.
Barry_Green
Moderator
And we're glad to have you, and to have the tools in the hands of more folks.
But this whole "threatening" thing -- I've been around these woods for a while, and I'll tell you who's threatened -- the folks who bought a lot of gear but have no talent. THOSE are the folks who are "threatened", if anyone is. Because now anyone can come along with new gear and no talent, and if the choice is between a guy with no talent and old gear, or a guy with no talent and new gear, the guy with the new gear wins.
Point being -- owning gear doesn't get you anywhere (except begged to do freebies for someone who doesn't own that gear). You can put a typewriter in the hands of every kid in America, but how many of them will write better than Hemingway used to with a pencil?
I've known people who were complete *******s to work with, who had no talent, but who had the only decent camera/tripod/lights package in town, so we had to keep going to him when we needed stuff. That part of the business has changed, yes.
I guess what I'm saying here is: gear has little to nothing to do with success. David Mullen says that the only piece of equipment he owns is a light meter. So for someone to think "aha! Now I have a DSLR, so now that's the only thing that's been holding me back from storming the gates of Hollywood, they can no longer keep me out" is naive and silly.
Learn what you're doing, and you'll always be employable. Buying equipment has never been a path to success in anything other than the equipment-rental business.
Jester2138
Well-known member
I'm sorry, but I don't see why Spike was banned. Sure, he got personal, but not so much that he should have been banned. Just delete his posts. EDIT: Now I do. Sorry.
I 100% agree with him that the DSLR's are changing the way filmmaking is done. But don't take it from me, take it from established professionals (not talking about those on this board). Rodney Charters, etc.
I am a film student. I've used my DSLR for the last 3 short films of mine. Once my fellow students saw how it looked, they stopped using their DVX's and XHA1's and recruited me to shoot their films. Why? BECAUSE THE CAMERA MATTERS. Saying otherwise is foolish and ultimately arrogant. Sure, for the price of a 5D II you could rent a Red. But I would have absolutely no idea how to use a Red. I'd get it for a few days/weeks and then it'd be gone. I'd have to spend that money AGAIN to get it for another short film. I couldn't learn and grow with it. Besides, one of the last short films I worked on with my DSLR simply could not have been shot with a Red. The Red would have been much to large/complicated. The whole thing was set in a small bathroom and there were several shots where I had a 28mm lens and was literally jamming the camera against a wall, measuring for focus and yelling to the director around the corner who had a monitor if the framing was right. That could not have been done with a Red, or any other camera for that matter.
I also believe saying that the introduction of 8mm, DV, or what have you didn't "democratize" filmmaking as one member said here is foolish. Of course it did! This board wouldn't exist if it didn't!
I think we are facing a revolution in filmmaking (not just with SLR's, they're just a fad that will be replaced by the next big thing). Technology is advancing at such a fast pace that it is natural that established professionals feel a little antsy. I would if I were one. Same thing has happened in lots of fields.
But I want to make my opinion clear on one thing (but it is only MY opinion). I have read countless threads where people ask "Which camera is better" or the like. We all have. Inevitably someone pipes up with the "The filmmaker matters more than the camera" comment. People generally agree, then get back to the camera debate.
What I am saying is that the camera very much DOES matter. Not above a certain price point, of course, but at this moment in time, picking between different cameras under $15,000 can dramatically change the look of your film (and how your set works). I believe that ignoring that fact is foolish.
If you feel like I deserve to be banned for expressing my opinions in a civil manner, then I don't feel like visiting this board any more. I'll get back to shooting some films while you guys keep bickering.
EDIT: It is easy for a pro to say the gear doesn't matter. So, to show us how much you believe in that statement, how about for your next project, take only the cheapest camera you own, tripod, and a few lights? Forget fancy Reds, lighting trucks, follow focus's, monitors... They won't affect whether you're successful or not, right? So don't use them! They only slow you down.
*end very long post*
I 100% agree with him that the DSLR's are changing the way filmmaking is done. But don't take it from me, take it from established professionals (not talking about those on this board). Rodney Charters, etc.
I am a film student. I've used my DSLR for the last 3 short films of mine. Once my fellow students saw how it looked, they stopped using their DVX's and XHA1's and recruited me to shoot their films. Why? BECAUSE THE CAMERA MATTERS. Saying otherwise is foolish and ultimately arrogant. Sure, for the price of a 5D II you could rent a Red. But I would have absolutely no idea how to use a Red. I'd get it for a few days/weeks and then it'd be gone. I'd have to spend that money AGAIN to get it for another short film. I couldn't learn and grow with it. Besides, one of the last short films I worked on with my DSLR simply could not have been shot with a Red. The Red would have been much to large/complicated. The whole thing was set in a small bathroom and there were several shots where I had a 28mm lens and was literally jamming the camera against a wall, measuring for focus and yelling to the director around the corner who had a monitor if the framing was right. That could not have been done with a Red, or any other camera for that matter.
I also believe saying that the introduction of 8mm, DV, or what have you didn't "democratize" filmmaking as one member said here is foolish. Of course it did! This board wouldn't exist if it didn't!
I think we are facing a revolution in filmmaking (not just with SLR's, they're just a fad that will be replaced by the next big thing). Technology is advancing at such a fast pace that it is natural that established professionals feel a little antsy. I would if I were one. Same thing has happened in lots of fields.
But I want to make my opinion clear on one thing (but it is only MY opinion). I have read countless threads where people ask "Which camera is better" or the like. We all have. Inevitably someone pipes up with the "The filmmaker matters more than the camera" comment. People generally agree, then get back to the camera debate.
What I am saying is that the camera very much DOES matter. Not above a certain price point, of course, but at this moment in time, picking between different cameras under $15,000 can dramatically change the look of your film (and how your set works). I believe that ignoring that fact is foolish.
If you feel like I deserve to be banned for expressing my opinions in a civil manner, then I don't feel like visiting this board any more. I'll get back to shooting some films while you guys keep bickering.
EDIT: It is easy for a pro to say the gear doesn't matter. So, to show us how much you believe in that statement, how about for your next project, take only the cheapest camera you own, tripod, and a few lights? Forget fancy Reds, lighting trucks, follow focus's, monitors... They won't affect whether you're successful or not, right? So don't use them! They only slow you down.
*end very long post*
Last edited:
Barry_Green
Moderator
It all comes down to being able to learn. If you own something, you can practice with it round the clock and do anything and everything with it. If you have to rent, you can't build your skill set. In one way, as Squig points out, the cheaper tech has definitely opened doors for people to start that learning process.
Although, I would of course counter that we've been down that path a hundred times already, starting with 16mm, then 8mm, then Super 8, then VHS, then Hi-8, then DV, then HDV, then HVX, and now DSLR. Every single time it's been heralded as a "revolution", but is it?
We are glad that these products are coming to market and are making it more affordable for more folks to pick up and learn the craft and be able to do more personal projects or even start businesses with them. I think what Kholi and I are both trying to say is: keep your head on straight and don't go thinking that just because you've bought a 7D or a Scarlet or a Red One, all of a sudden doors will open for you, because... well, actually, some doors will open for you, but they're not really the doors you want to be walking through. They're the doors of getting exploited and taken advantage of.
Fair enough. On the other side of the coin, it's not motivational to say we've been there for several years already? Not having DSLR's didn't stop several people from producing well known features who aren't major players. It hasn't stopped Jack Daniel Stanely, one of DVXusers own, from Slamdancing his way into festivals and carving a name for himself with his signature cinematic flare.
IT didn't stop the Atlanta team from producing THE SIGNAL, selling out to Magnola for 1.5Million PLUS distribution rights.
But I haven't seen a single all DSLR feature film that A) looked incredible and B) Got distribution in a major way. How is the truth any less motivational?
I'm not saying that you're wrong. The point illustrated was that it was there a long time ago and it really doesn't matter if what's behind the camera and in front of the camera isn't up to snuff. You really only need to look at the scores upon scores of fotoage on Vimeo and ask yourself how much of it you would pay to watch.
It's possible that you may have an edge, but you're not the only one in your area talking DSLR. It's a world wide "phenomenon". I've got 100 gigs of 7D footage from Japan, and right now tons of commercial material in JP land is being acquired with the MKii.
Nobody plans to fail, not here, not there, not anywhere. Your model isn't new, it isn't innovative, it's been around for ages.
I do see how it is motivating, I'm not discouraging that. Unfortunately, CommanderSpike sees it this way.
squig
Veteran
I think the low light capability of the 1DMKIV is pretty revolutionary, it allows for a big saving in time and money on lighting....I'm not suggesting no lighting but certainly less lighting.
Barry_Green
Moderator
That is between the moderators and Spike himself, and not really laundry that needs to be aired out in public.
Was there pay involved? Or were you essentially taken advantage of? Of course, for those who want to work for free to gain experience, having something to offer will sweeten the deal, but -- as I said in the other post, it's not a path to success.
Agreed 100%.
Here I agree again, obviously the tinier products are making more types of shots available. But -- is this new? That was the same thing Lars von Trier said when he chose to shoot "The Celebration" on a Sony PC7.
Well, you may think it's foolish, but I point to the state of the film industry, and the percentage/ratio of indie filmmakers who achieve any degree of success in the industry, and -- sorry, but no, I don't see it. The odds are just as steep against you today, as they were fifty years ago. Steeper, in fact, because there's a glut of product so now distribs won't even watch films.
If there is anything that's democratized anything, it's the internet. Being able to reach people outside of the established distribution system is where the real democratization has a chance to happen.
To a degree, yes. Hence why this board began life as DVXuser.com.
Why on earth would anyone ban anyone for expressing opinions in a civil manner?