Can you spot the 5DII footage in this Shane Hurlbut feature

[Chris_TC]

Uhm, so is a PD-150 and a DVX. We've established that way back when NOVEMBER won best Cinematography at what? SUNDANCE.... IN 2004.

I think you're missing the point. November looks DV beginning to end which was the intention (hence the use of those cameras).

Shane on the other hand is intercutting film footage with 5d footage and people have a really hard time telling the difference. That's why this is so exciting.

 

[f64manray]

I think you're missing the point. November looks DV beginning to end which was the intention (hence the use of those cameras).

Shane on the other hand is intercutting film footage with 5d footage and people have a really hard time telling the difference. That's why this is so exciting.

Also, it was pretty obvious in "November" that the DVX100 was struggling pretty hard in those low lit scenes to maintain a clean image. The 5DII or the 7D would have handled it better probably.

 

[Kholi]

Also, it was pretty obvious in "November" that the DVX100 was struggling pretty hard in those low lit scenes to maintain a clean image. The 5DII or the 7D would have handled it better probably.

ANd it still doesn't matter because it still won out at one of the largest film festivals on the planet...

And how many times has HVX200 footage been mixed with film?

But, I digress: if you STILL think the camera matters THAT much and it helps to get you shooting something then that's all that matters.

 

[commanderspike]

Also, it was pretty obvious in "November" that the DVX100 was struggling pretty hard in those low lit scenes to maintain a clean image. The 5DII or the 7D would have handled it better probably.

100% true.

Would November have been a hit on a Flip cam Mino? Probably, but it would have that constantly distracting feel of 'I'm shot on a rubbish camera' in the background of each scene.

And none of the creative possibilities brought about by an HD-SLR (at least to the indie film maker, with a low budget and lightweight kit) would have been available. So yes the camera does matter. Hence the dvxuser.com technical discussions.

 

[Barry_Green]

Missing the point. Kholi's point is not that "November" got made on a DVX100, it's that it won the "Best Cinematography" award. At SUNDANCE.

 

[commanderspike]

A camera can either be a creative choice or a limitation.

Hurlbut has chosen the 5D because it's a creative choice.

I presume the makers of November chose the DVX100 for a similar reason.

But my point is that most of the none-professionals... the indie film makers - we choose the DSLRs because it's the best we can get for the money AND a creative choice. We want shallow DOF, we want a pick of great lenses. Why say to someone that none of that matters? You and Kholi both have jobs because of camera technology and the distribution of knowledge across a large section of new filmmakers. Yet every post I've seen lately from Kholi has been completely dismissive of both aspects of his own trade - both the knowledge, the technology and the new film makers enabled by it.

In the face of extreme arrogance from the established professionals, amateurs are battering down the doors to the part of the film industry which houses the under threat seats. And that is exactly why guys like Kholi have the attitude they do toward people like me.

 

[cinebuddy]

Missing the point. Kholi's point is not that "November" got made on a DVX100, it's that it won the "Best Cinematography" award. At SUNDANCE.

But doesn't cinematography happen when you point a good camera at an image?

 

[commanderspike]

A camera is a tool of expression. The politics of the film industry (and the investment & knowledge involved to get them a job), mean that some people don't want certain others to have that ability. If the skills market becomes saturated with people with HDSLRs and they're all producing amazing work, what room is there for a seasoned pro with his $10,000 worth of investment, cameras, lenses and lighting rigs?

I've been criticised heavily by mods for 'theorising' about this and other aspects of the DSLR game, but I have come to realise that it's simply a way of censoring the elephant in the room and that they'd prefer me not to have an opinion at all unless it agrees with theirs.

 

[cinebuddy]

In the face of extreme arrogance from the established professionals, amateurs are battering down the doors to the part of the film industry which houses the under threat seats. And that is exactly why guys like Kholi have the attitude they do toward people like me.

I gotta disagree with that one. Some people who bought Red cameras thought the same thing. So what happens? A producer chooses Red and hires David Mullens or Claudio Miranda. These tools are not replacing a skilled DP no way no how. They may make it easier for us to do our own quality production, but you still have to actually "do" all the things that make a production quality. Case and point...Hunter Richards posts DVX100 footage with an adapter and it looks outstanding, even in the face of 5d footage he shot it looks incredible. Why? Lighting, composition, and exposure all the things that don't require an HD camera, just skill.

 

[commanderspike]

I gotta disagree with that one. Some people who bought Red cameras thought the same thing. So what happens? A producer chooses Red and hires David Mullens or Claudio Miranda. These tools are not replacing a skilled DP no way no how. They may make it easier for us to do our own quality production, but you still have to actually "do" all the things that make a production quality. Case and point...Hunter Richards posts DVX100 footage with an adapter and it looks outstanding, even in the face of 5d footage he shot it looks incredible. Why? Lighting, composition, and exposure all the things that don't require an HD camera, just skill.

Not skilled, no. Certainly not 'name' cinematographers. I agree with you on that. But what the DSLRs do is enable fresh blood to compete on a level that they couldn't do before. So of course people lower down the food chain, and technology evangelists, feel irritated by the influx of new talent.

If you've spent the last 5 years working hard to achieve quality cinematic, and then suddenly a load of talent which had been unable to express itself and unable to afford the rigs, enter the market with a backpack of lenses and a DSLR, I can understand why they get peeved and start displaying a defensive know-it-all arrogance.

 

[cinebuddy]

A camera is a tool of expression. The politics of the film industry (and the investment & knowledge involved to get them a job), mean that some people don't want certain others to have that ability. If the skills market becomes saturated with people with HDSLRs and they're all producing amazing work, what room is there for a seasoned pro with his $10,000 worth of investment, cameras, lenses and lighting rigs?

I've been criticised heavily by mods for 'theorising' about this and other aspects of the DSLR game, but I have come to realise that it's simply a way of censoring the elephant in the room and that they'd prefer me not to have an opinion at all unless it agrees with theirs.

What pro has his own lights? Matt Workman moved to New York and sold his HVX and all his gear, he works with whatever camera and grip is rented by the production company. I think the 5d is the first camera he has owned in years. Owning a camera isn't indicative of having a skill right? Now I agree with you on these cameras being the greatest tool to come along for indie film makers since sliced bread.

 

[commanderspike]

No it's not indicative of having skill. That's not what I'm saying.

I am saying it's an enabler of skill.

That previously you had to have expensive equipment and rented lights plus years of knowledge in the industry, blocked many from entering the industry in the first place. Do you see what I mean?

It's not socialism. I am not for that. I don't think everybody should go to university either. Some people should leave school at 16, take up an apprenticeship. Some leave anyway and become successful in business. Having more people going to unievrsities dilutes the market for diplomas and therefore a qualification means less.

This will also happen with the HD-SLRs. How many more shallow DOF camera tests will we want to see before it becomes boring.

Now what matters is not your qualifications, ability to rent lights, knowledge of sets. What matters now is having that cinematic ability to create emotional visuals, and a camera capable of communicating that.

 

[f64manray]

ANd it still doesn't matter because it still won out at one of the largest film festivals on the planet...

And how many times has HVX200 footage been mixed with film?

But, I digress: if you STILL think the camera matters THAT much and it helps to get you shooting something then that's all that matters.

Really, I don't disagree with you. But I think all the discussion about trumpet charts (as helpful and informative as it was) in recent weeks was discouraging to alot of people here and also readers that don't post but are thinking of getting into film making and want the best piece of kit they can get. I think many want to know they are shooting with near the best quality that's available.

We can split hairs with trumpet charts here all day long, but the fact is that experienced DP's in the industry find the quality of the 5DII comparable to 35mm film ie; Shane Hurlbut, Rodney Charter and the Chariots of Fire DP ( can't think of his name). That's the quality I want to shoot with and am not really interested in shooting with less. It's great that "November" won at Sundance, but they really had to milk that camera to get what they did out of it and pushed it to the brink. The same results will be much more easily attainable with these VDSLRs in the hands of any photographer that knows how to work with light and without the need of a lighting truck.

 

[cinebuddy]

Not skilled, no. Certainly not 'name' cinematographers. I agree with you on that. But what the DSLRs do is enable fresh blood to compete on a level that they couldn't do before. So of course people lower down the food chain, and technology evangelists, feel irritated by the influx of new talent.

If you've spent the last 5 years working hard to achieve quality cinematic, and then suddenly a load of talent which had been unable to express itself and unable to afford the rigs, enter the market with a backpack of lenses and a DSLR, I can understand why they get peeved and start displaying a defensive know-it-all arrogance.

I agree with you but think you're taking the initial comment a little too personal. I'm no pro at all but I agree with the gist of the comment on the camera not being a magic bullet. I say let the argument die...

 

[slimchrisp]

I am saying it's an enabler of skill.

I think that's a great way to put it. A 7d and some ebay primes is going to give you the ability to learn tons about lenses and framing which will translate into a great foundation for use on more pricey, higher end cameras and lenses.

 

[commanderspike]

Didn't aim anything at you cinebuddy. My argument is aimed squarely at certain pros on dvxuser.com who will remain nameless.

It's not Shane that's for sure. His enthusiasm and passion, along with LaForet and Bloom are what gets people to buy and use these cameras, and I'm sure they've started a good few many careers as a result of their passion and helpful attitude towards 'newbies'.

 

[commanderspike]

I think that's a great way to put it. A 7d and some primes is going to give you the ability to learn tons about lenses and framing which will translate into a great foundation for use on more pricey, higher end cameras.

Yep, totally.

And it allows you to express your 'eye' more than a DV cam could ever do. In that sense, the chart talk is meaningless because the overall aesthetics of a DSLR are so much more beautiful than that of the typical DV cam / affordable camcorders.

Another aspect is often overlooked - that a DSLR allows a skilled and experience photographer bridge the gap between his trade and that of a cinematographer. Some of the best film directors and cinematographers started of as stills photographers. Anton Corbijn who directed Control for instance, is a prime example.

 

[cinebuddy]

Really, I don't disagree with you. But I think all the discussion about trumpet charts (as helpful and informative as it was) in recent weeks was discouraging to alot of people here and also readers that don't post but are thinking of getting into film making and want the best piece of kit they can get. I think many want to know they are shooting with near the best quality that's available.

We can split hairs with trumpet charts here all day long, but the fact is that experienced DP's in the industry find the quality of the 5DII comparable to 35mm film ie; Shane Hurlbut, Rodney Charter and the Chariots of Fire DP ( can't think of his name). That's the quality I want to shoot with and am not really interested in shooting with less. It's great that "November" won at Sundance, but they really had to milk that camera to get what they did out of it and pushed it to the brink. The same results will be much more easily attainable with these VDSLRs in the hands of any photographer that knows how to work with light and without the need of a lighting truck.

The trumpet charts to me were a bunch of hulabaloo. That is just technical mumbo jumbo and when I show footage to people who would watch something i'd produce, they love it. They don't see moire, they don't see that the tree 100 yds away is not as sharp as another camera. They see great looking footage period. But the fact remains many of us will sit around on this site, with these cameras and not shoot sh*t worth seeing. Why? Because to shoot a November you still have to put in the work to get the production value. That is what Kholi's comment goes to. Production design, location scouting, position of the sun and so on...but res charts who cares?

 

[slimchrisp]

Plus the fact that they are so small you can take them with you everywhere. I almost always have my 5dmkii on me, and like others have said, no one knows you're even shooting video.

That has translated into me learning leaps over bounds, because I shoot so much more. Not to mention I get so much more shooting time due to memory for an slr costing soooooo much less than p2.

Another aspect is often overlooked - that a DSLR allows a skilled and experience photographer bridge the gap between his trade and that of a cinematographer. Some of the best film directors and cinematographers started of as stills photographers. Anton Corbijn who directed Control for instance, is a prime example.

Yep. My wife is in that group. All she wants to do is shoot video with my 5D now.

And FWIW, Control was awesome. Great film about a great band, and I LOVED the cinematography.

 

[commanderspike]

Totally get the portability argument, that is a huge factor for Hurlbut also with the helmet cam, stripper cam, crash cam, etc.

To state a specific example... I wanted shallow DOF since 5 years ago on a video camera. Now I have it, I realise how much it adds to a shoot.

The ability to draw the audience's focus to a certain part of the frame is one of the best cinematic tool you can get.

Of course it matters.

That James Cameron quote is a memorable one on so many levels. Also Darren Aronofsky, one of my favourite directors has a good one which goes:

"As filmmakers, we can show where a person's mind goes, as opposed to theater, which is more to sit back and watch it."

Cinema is about showing emotions, communicating them to the audience so they can FEEL it. The camera should not be an obstacle to that, but an enabler.

That is also why Cameron has just spent the last 10 years helping to develop 3D cinema technology. Is Kholi seriously suggesting that 'doesn't matter' ??