Can someone update me on RED (specifically 'Scarlet')? - I've been out of the loop...

Scarlet's not aimed at indie filmmakers, and it's not aimed at DSLRs. They know who they're targeting, and those two groups aren't it.
 
rallymatt said:
Yes. Now has HDRx. Price has gone up for the 8X fixed. It is done. Footage was posted today from it actually. Waiting for Japan parts that are non-existent due to tsunami. Cinema is unknown. Epic-S (formerly scarlet s35) is unknown.
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Link to footage?
 
Red has been very successful and clearly knows who their market is and it may not be you. Sorry but that is the way it is. Yes, Scarlet has seen it's share of changes and delays but it will be released one day and it will sell very well.
 
I guess who RED is targetting is all going to come down to pricing. If it's $5K for the 8x fixed Scarlet, perhaps they'll be going after would-be AG-AF100/FS100 buyers?
 
A fixed lens that covers a wide enough range of high enough quality should be fine for those who can't afford proper glass and want to jump into the program, will the glass be as good as we are told will it hold up to standards... lets wait and see for ourselves. (oh there is the interchangeable scarlet as well)

2/3" sensor.... really not the biggest of issues, would I like to have a s35 as well of course, would I only want one for the rest of my life... no, but I'll take a red with a raw codec over just about anything else in the price range(large sensor or not)... right now, who knows what will be out when it is.... and that is just my needs and desires we are all different. (and there is a whole line of other camera's with larger sensors)

Waiting, I'm fine waiting, nothing in my price range has been enough of a jump in quality and workflow that I would jump from my current camera, so I can wait. If something better comes out will I refuse to buy it, hell no, if red goes under and never makes a camera again will I wither up in a small corner and slowly die.... no, I'll buy the next awesomest camera out there(next in my price range to clarify not saying reds are the best just they are doing what I like)... or the nearest one I can afford and justify.

to each their own I guess

...Oh and the last we herd the fixed and interchangeable are still in production, the fixed is estimated to be released in September but not likely (they have never made or missed a actual delivery date just estimates), the interchangeable should be out after, they are delayed because of parts in Japan and a big one is part of the lens. If you want more info go to reduser .com in fact this site links to it if you try and go into the red section in the new guys area of the board (I think), Red routinely updates you on their site about their current progress and throw out little bits for us like, test shoots, people checking out the cameras, even throwing up some sample raw files you can play with on your computer (from an earlier test model).

Have a good one! as always you don't have to read or take in a word I say and you can do whatever you like...
peace and love to you all!!!
 
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Jean Dantes said:
I gotta be honest, I can't help but feel that RED is very "elitist". RED definitely isn't for the true indie/student filmmaker. It's simply too expensive. The Scarlet fixed-lens might cater, but with HDRx, I think it's gonna be somewhere in the $5000USD+ range, if not much more. But I'm just speculating. Guess that's all you can do with vaporware.
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It's so interesting to read this stuff and think back to when the RED One was announced. Back then it certainly didn't seem elitist to have a camera for 25gs that could do things cameras for 100gs couldn't. It's interesting to read that $5000 is now elitist when so many of us where shooting on HVX200s or EX1s which launched at 6,000 and 8,000 respectively. I certainly don't want to blow any more money than I have to (I'm broke) but it does amaze me how quickly we forget all the cool toys we're getting for such a cheap price. A movie like Winter's Bone was shot on red for about 2 million. Had it been shot on 35mm, I'm guessing one might have added a couple hundred thousand onto that budget. RED (along with a lot of other HD cameras) helped change the game when it came out. Unfortunatly for the Scarlet, the game has been changed again and a 2/3 sensor is probably going to take a huge bite out of its potential sales.
 
As one who has been following this fairly closely of late, I might offer some thoughts from as near as I can tell.

It's my guess that Scarlet 8x fixed will ship for something around $6500-$7000, this will include the monitor. It may not include a CF card, perhaps not even the handle grip, or battery. At NAB (post quake/tsunami) Ted said "about $6k" for a ready to shoot Scarlet 8x fixed. But reading between the lines on their sites, I won't be surprised if they up that to what I listed.

The cameras that have been made now are basically final products. There are likely a good dozen of them in the hands of Red employees and friends. So no more one-off prototypes or mock-ups. What they are testing now is the final design. The hold up seems to be:

1) The jigs and die templates made in Japan for a few key parts were buried in the rubble and muck, so this delayed everything several weeks more.

2) There are what appears to be some issues regarding the lens, lens control, or touch screen to lens control. Red won't give details, but I don't believe these to be hardware issues with the physical lens itself, but soft/firmware hurdles to clear.

3) In camera playback. Another firmware fix that is supposedly nearly fixed.

It's my belief that the soonest you'll see them available for purchase will be late September. It won't surprise me if it takes until 2012. It shouldn't surprise you either...right?

I don't think this camera compares to DSLRs. The features and thus uses are much different.

As to why someone would buy one of these?

• HDRx is a powerful tool.
• Overcranking, up to 180fps tops anything at this level not made by VR.
• 8x lens is enough for many people, and very handy.
• Fixed lenses are fine, as long as the glass is great and the lens is reasonably fast.
• Raw and 2.5k to 3k footage should be very high quality.

That short list could result in a very high IQ in many shooting situations. I'm interested because I mostly shoot doc-drama, run-gun/ENG stuff, with a few high end projects. If I shoot something cinema, I do, but I don't aim to make a living at it. I just want nice looking stuff in a reasonable to use all-in-one camera system.
 
isle said:
I don't think many wants it to fail, but it will simply because it's too late.
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3K @ 120fps, RAW codec, 18 stops of DR, all for under 10K...there's nothing EVEN CLOSE available yet, and it's already too late for you?
 
stip said:
3K @ 120fps, RAW codec, 18 stops of DR, all for under 10K...there's nothing EVEN CLOSE available yet, and it's already too late for you?
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It was too late the day 5D MKII hit the stores. The market for Scarlet was everyone who bought DSLR for video. 99% of those videos people shoot will end up on internet and the quality DSLR's produce is good enough for that. Those people aren't looking to get Scarlet which costs way more, has fixed lens, 2/3 sensor and needs way faster computer for editing.
 
That market isn't Scarlet's target market. Red made it pretty clear that they didn't want customers who think it's appropriate to use a 5D to shoot a "movie", when they told their users to "man up". Scarlet has a 1080p scaled mode in-camera because that's what their target customer wants.

Again, their target customer isn't the indie moviemaker. For those folks, they have the Epic (including the future Epic-S). And if you can't afford an Epic, then Red doesn't consider you their customer anyway, so don't worry about it.
 
DavidBeier said:
It's so interesting to read this stuff and think back to when the RED One was announced. Back then it certainly didn't seem elitist to have a camera for 25gs that could do things cameras for 100gs couldn't. It's interesting to read that $5000 is now elitist when so many of us where shooting on HVX200s or EX1s which launched at 6,000 and 8,000 respectively.
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Well, when so many of you were shooting on HVX200's/EX1's, some of us were shooting on battered second-hand GS400's we picked up at yard sales...


Barry_Green said:
That market isn't Scarlet's target market. Red made it pretty clear that they didn't want customers who think it's appropriate to use a 5D to shoot a "movie", when they told their users to "man up".
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Anyone can make a film, I guess...but only rich people can make a film in 4K with master-primes :grin:

People will say, "story is king" - which is very, very true, but what underprivileged filmmaker wouldn't wish to see their stories come to life with 4K and some master primes? Even if a fixed 8x Scarlet comes out at $6500 or so (probably even more with CF cards and all the accessories), it's still out of reach for most student filmmakers, or those that are, unfortunately, financially underprivileged filmmakers. RED's attitude of "if you want to make a film on the 5D, we don't want to know you", just reinforces my accusation of their elitism. I think my, as well as the frustration and disappointment of other ultra-low-budget filmmakers, spawns from the "3K for $3K" pitch that RED was touting a few years ago; it was the equivalent of telling a homeless man that he could have a five-course meal cooked by a three-star Michelin chef for the handful of change in his hat...
 
"People will say, 'story is king...'"

And then inevitably the next question is: King of what?

When you survey your kingdom, is it the alley behind Safeway?

(been there, btw.)
 
Jean Dantes said:
Even if a fixed 8x Scarlet comes out at $6500 or so (probably even more with CF cards and all the accessories), it's still out of reach for most student filmmakers, or those that are, unfortunately, financially underprivileged filmmakers.
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That's not the target market for the Scarlet Fixed. Has nothing to do with student filmmakers or financially underpriveleged filmmakers. So they shouldn't even care about it, it's not made for them, it's not aimed at them.

Think about it -- what does the no-budget filmmaker want? A large sensor, and interchangeable lenses. The Scarlet Fixed offers neither of those. So why would the no-budget guy want it?

Seriously, why would he want it? Why would he want to spend $6,500 to get something that doesn't do what he wants?

The no-budget guys will stick with DSLRs at $699. The modest-budget guys will go with AF100's and FS100's at $5k-$6k.

Scarlet is made for someone else. The Epic line is made for filmmakers.

RED's attitude of "if you want to make a film on the 5D, we don't want to know you", just reinforces my accusation of their elitism.
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Is it elitism? Or is it making a product to serve a particular purpose? My understanding of Red is that they have a specific customer in mind and they are going aggressively after that customer. I guess if you don't happen to be that particular customer you might think Red is being elitist, but I would just say -- you're not their customer. I don't think it's elitist that Tampax sells products only to women and I'm not their customer -- I think it's a case of that they know their customer and they're going after them.

I think my, as well as the frustration and disappointment of other ultra-low-budget filmmakers, spawns from the "3K for $3K" pitch that RED was touting a few years ago; it was the equivalent of telling a homeless man that he could have a five-course meal cooked by a three-star Michelin chef for the handful of change in his hat...
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Well, yeah, but come on -- that was three years ago. Red has thoroughly reinvented themselves, and tried to put as much distance as possible between them and "3K for $3K" and "Soccer Moms" and all that. That was a disastrous mistake on their part, to go announcing that. They had no conceivable way of fulfilling it, and witness that here we are 3.25 years later and there's still no Scarlet, and even when there is one, it'll be substantially more expensive. Red is famous for saying (about themselves) "we don't know what we're doing." Well, that was a classic example. They didn't know what they were doing, and they screwed up. I think it's time to cut them some slack on that. They know a whole lot more about what they're doing now. And they stated who they are and what they're for. They make products for professionals (being, those who make their living off of using the company's products). They design, develop, build, market, and service those products for that clientele. They are not interested in having the t2i customer. They are not going to be selling at Best Buy or Wal-Mart. They're not even going to be selling them to professional video dealers, at least at the start. They are not designing the Scarlet to be a "pocket cinema" camera anymore. That was three years ago.

Now, I'm not saying that some of the DSLR customers won't pony up the cash and buy a Scarlet and use it for moviemaking, I'm sure they will -- just like they use still-photography cameras for moviemaking today. But that's not the customer Red is targeting, designing for, or courting.
 
Funniest thing is that half of the people owning EPIC wouldn't even need it, but I guess if you are rich it's not wrong to have some toys. Then they post some crappy videos on the forum and everyone telling each other how amazing the material is, same time looking down people with dslr's despite the fact that the guys with dslr's produce way better stuff these elitist could ever do. Of course there are some great talents in a mix, but I've seen a lot of that other stuff there too.
 
I think Scarlet will find a very healthy market when it hits. No it is not going to fit the under $5k market segment, think more like double that for a minimal practical rigged out field package. It is going to appeal to those like myself who prefer the smaller 16mm/2/3" sized format for its all around practicality and usefulness. Those who want image quality on par with the better midrange priced broadcast cameras like the Varicam or Sony F800, but can't afford the bucks. Those who want the more film like aesthetic and creative latitude that shooting Redcode raw provides. Those who think that low end MP4 codecs are crap as an acquisition format and don't want a camera that requires a lot of hoop jumping and workarounds to function as a practical motion camera.
In short, a modestly priced, robust, practical, functional digital alternative to an S16mm film camera.
 
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