unclebob6958
Well-known member
Some hobbyist/amateurs learn from their mistakes; a professional has the ability to learn from the mistakes of others...
Can anybody show me some of their work recording sound for film?
- Thread starter L1N3ARX
- Start date
Some hobbyist/amateurs learn from their mistakes; a professional has the ability to learn from the mistakes of others...
mentatDUKE
Veteran
L1N3ARX, I was curious about this choice. Wouldn't the modded DR680 be a better choice? You get clean pre-amps in addition to several channels. I figure you can minimize risk and inexperience by striving to have a redundant system in place: Multiple lavs in addition to your Octava or shotgun on a boom.
Then in post you have options and may not even have to use ADR to fix things.
Thoughts?
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
Careful, the powers that be get testy with personal comments...
I think you summed it up and made my point
.
My comments were not about mics but planning. Oil and ratchet straps would probably made a world of difference. You have to stop noise where it starts not after the fact.
If you have suspension noise you can dampen it and lube it and reduce it or eliminate it 80% of the time. You as producer made a visual choice.
And you can plan your shots in ways so you are not having the noise on your dialog. It's called planning. Story board, shot list, talking to the sound guy and testing. It doesn't require money it requires time and the backing of the director/ producer.
I have worked on no-budget films with both types of directors and YES you can plan ahead of time, you can test, and you can do traveling shots you don't have to ADR. On a budget.
BUT you have to want to have good sound. If the attitude is we will fix the sound later because it "looks amazing" that is what you get, amazing visuals and iffy sound.
And yes making a movie is probably just about the most intense decision making under pressure job out side of combat. But guess what you chose to do it so you get no sympathy from someone who has also been there. If you can't deal with that then it isn't the right thing to be doing.
Not all those decisions will be the best choices, but the take away isn't "it can't be done" but "maybe if we did XYZ we could have done it".
Laying it all off on lack of money is a cop out and we have all seen enough really good films made on tiny budgets to know money doesn't have to stop you.
"Screed" Koue here
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Noiz2
Sound Ninja
OK, I should give some details.
I have used an old trailer on a shoot and we did quiet it down a LOT.
Most of the sound is either suspension or loose parts.
So first gaf tape anything that moves like chains, clips, etc.
If the trailer suspension is an issue (often the case) a good penetrating lubricant like WD-40 will quiet most metal on metal creaks and groans. You can also get "grease-gun in a can" which leaves a thicker film. Hit the springs and other stress points.
The next big issue is usually the car suspension. It's often more enclosed and not so sprayable so you need to load it down so it doesn't move.
Ratchet straps will work wonders to strap the car down on the bed of the trailer. You may also need to tape some loose bits. All the chains that hold the car in place you already taped in the first part.
You can test as you go by bouncing on the trailer. If it squeaks spray it, if it rattles tape it. Zip ties may also come in handy.
The rest is planning.
You are not shooting the road so pick a smooth one. Gravel roads will kill any chance to get decent sound.
Establishing shots don't even need to be in the same country as the car int shots. If you want that old rough road shoot that in B roll.
The second planning thing is the shot list. In CU reverse shot you can't see whats out the window. In most cases your not going to even be able to tell if the car was moving in that shot, but at the very least you can be shooting on the smoothest repaved road in the area because at the most there will be a sense of light changing motion that is totally out of focus behind the talking head.
You don't have to shoot so the lips are clearly visible all the time (or actually you don't have to edit that way). You can do the reverse conversation thing where most of character X's dialog is on the reaction shot. Over the shoulder shots have moving jaws but generally no lips. All of this means you can shoot the dialog scene stationary and cut back and forth (as you are going to want to do anyway) and use the "good" dialog.
You can also use greenscreen. You can do it in the studio and use the motion track from a "real drive test shot" to add the motion back into the shot. A trick the editor for LOST used on all the plane int. sequences.
Or you can use greenscreen in the field to swap out the background of the place you did the trailer shots for a background you like better. Good examples (on a much bigger budget than most here but WAY below big budget Hollywod films) are "Boardwalk Empire" and the "John Adams" mini series. Very little of the exteriors in these shows and in some cases not much of the Interiors are "real". Some are composites of stills with FX.
All the greenscreen tasks take time and someone who knows how to composite. That isn't the easiest thing in the world but I have actually done some so with enough work it is doable even if you are not a VFX guru (or in my case a bit of an VFX idiot). The tools to do all that are not free but they are pretty affordable these days. A few years ago you would have been looking at a small fortune for this quality of tool.
The big "trick" is to CG what everyone will assume is real and make as much of what people would assume was CG "real". That way they are looking in the wrong place. It's called "misdirection" and it's the key to magic tricks.
This may seem like a drift off into visual FX but the tie back is that if you are trying to get a "Hollywood" sounding track then you can do it on a shoestring. The tools are available and the cheats are doable. But to really pull it off you need to be thinking of how each decision will affect the sound. With creativity you can almost always get a high level of production sound, and that is the first step to getting a really good sound track.
And you will probably at some point have to make a decision that you know is going to compromise the sound of a shot. The key is to work it so you can either use "good" sound in a way that sync isn't an issue and to limit the amount of things like ADR to an absolute minimum so you can spend the time to make them really good.
I have used an old trailer on a shoot and we did quiet it down a LOT.
Most of the sound is either suspension or loose parts.
So first gaf tape anything that moves like chains, clips, etc.
If the trailer suspension is an issue (often the case) a good penetrating lubricant like WD-40 will quiet most metal on metal creaks and groans. You can also get "grease-gun in a can" which leaves a thicker film. Hit the springs and other stress points.
The next big issue is usually the car suspension. It's often more enclosed and not so sprayable so you need to load it down so it doesn't move.
Ratchet straps will work wonders to strap the car down on the bed of the trailer. You may also need to tape some loose bits. All the chains that hold the car in place you already taped in the first part.
You can test as you go by bouncing on the trailer. If it squeaks spray it, if it rattles tape it. Zip ties may also come in handy.
The rest is planning.
You are not shooting the road so pick a smooth one. Gravel roads will kill any chance to get decent sound.
Establishing shots don't even need to be in the same country as the car int shots. If you want that old rough road shoot that in B roll.
The second planning thing is the shot list. In CU reverse shot you can't see whats out the window. In most cases your not going to even be able to tell if the car was moving in that shot, but at the very least you can be shooting on the smoothest repaved road in the area because at the most there will be a sense of light changing motion that is totally out of focus behind the talking head.
You don't have to shoot so the lips are clearly visible all the time (or actually you don't have to edit that way). You can do the reverse conversation thing where most of character X's dialog is on the reaction shot. Over the shoulder shots have moving jaws but generally no lips. All of this means you can shoot the dialog scene stationary and cut back and forth (as you are going to want to do anyway) and use the "good" dialog.
You can also use greenscreen. You can do it in the studio and use the motion track from a "real drive test shot" to add the motion back into the shot. A trick the editor for LOST used on all the plane int. sequences.
Or you can use greenscreen in the field to swap out the background of the place you did the trailer shots for a background you like better. Good examples (on a much bigger budget than most here but WAY below big budget Hollywod films) are "Boardwalk Empire" and the "John Adams" mini series. Very little of the exteriors in these shows and in some cases not much of the Interiors are "real". Some are composites of stills with FX.
All the greenscreen tasks take time and someone who knows how to composite. That isn't the easiest thing in the world but I have actually done some so with enough work it is doable even if you are not a VFX guru (or in my case a bit of an VFX idiot). The tools to do all that are not free but they are pretty affordable these days. A few years ago you would have been looking at a small fortune for this quality of tool.
The big "trick" is to CG what everyone will assume is real and make as much of what people would assume was CG "real". That way they are looking in the wrong place. It's called "misdirection" and it's the key to magic tricks.
This may seem like a drift off into visual FX but the tie back is that if you are trying to get a "Hollywood" sounding track then you can do it on a shoestring. The tools are available and the cheats are doable. But to really pull it off you need to be thinking of how each decision will affect the sound. With creativity you can almost always get a high level of production sound, and that is the first step to getting a really good sound track.
And you will probably at some point have to make a decision that you know is going to compromise the sound of a shot. The key is to work it so you can either use "good" sound in a way that sync isn't an issue and to limit the amount of things like ADR to an absolute minimum so you can spend the time to make them really good.
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gonzo_entertainment
Veteran
So I could spend 16 hours scouting a smooth as glass road and trying (maybe unsuccessfully) to quiet down the trailer (which does NOT sound anything like a car when it hits a bump in the road no matter how much gaff tape and wd-40 you put on it), pay a compositer for multiple hours to try and make green screen not look like crap, or I can act like a sane person and realize there are situations where it's just near impossible to get usable production audio and ADR the scene (which took an hour and $100 payment to the talent). Seems pretty easy to me.
There WILL be situations where there is just nothing you can do. HVAC units in inaccessible places, traffic noise you can't control, the guy next door with his stereo cranked, etc... It's just reality. You factor those risks in when you scout the location, decide to use the trailer, etc... and sometimes they are the deciding factor in finding another plan. However, contrary to what you think, sound isn't driving the bus. It's important, very important, but sometimes it has to sit in the back seat.
There WILL be situations where there is just nothing you can do. HVAC units in inaccessible places, traffic noise you can't control, the guy next door with his stereo cranked, etc... It's just reality. You factor those risks in when you scout the location, decide to use the trailer, etc... and sometimes they are the deciding factor in finding another plan. However, contrary to what you think, sound isn't driving the bus. It's important, very important, but sometimes it has to sit in the back seat.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
To the OP,
I think following this thread you can get a pretty good idea of why Hollywood films sound different than almost all Indi no-budget films.
To Gonzo,
I'm just going to say I did it, it didn't take anywhere close to your estimate, we were only on a road that wasn't covered in potholes and if your doing sound post your adding the car sound in afterwards so it makes no difference if a trailer sounds like a care, you are not going to record either while doing dialog.
Sound never drives the bus. But in films with good sound the driver talks to them.
I think following this thread you can get a pretty good idea of why Hollywood films sound different than almost all Indi no-budget films.
To Gonzo,
I'm just going to say I did it, it didn't take anywhere close to your estimate, we were only on a road that wasn't covered in potholes and if your doing sound post your adding the car sound in afterwards so it makes no difference if a trailer sounds like a care, you are not going to record either while doing dialog.
Sound never drives the bus. But in films with good sound the driver talks to them.
gonzo_entertainment
Veteran
"Makes no difference if a trailer sounds like a car"
No, but it makes a difference if the sound of the trailer crosses dialogue. This was a 1967 Impala convertible. You could clearly hear the road sounds throughout the dialogue track because the shots inside were too wide to have the mic closer than about 24".
No, but it makes a difference if the sound of the trailer crosses dialogue. This was a 1967 Impala convertible. You could clearly hear the road sounds throughout the dialogue track because the shots inside were too wide to have the mic closer than about 24".