Camera Stabilization Question

Michael Erlewine

Michael Erlewine

Well-known member
I need some form of camera stabilization for my DVX200 and RedRockMicro accessories.. I am looking at the Glidecam 4000 Pro and the Smooth Shooter vest system, but I would also consider something smaller, if those of you out there can tell me they work for you.

From what I read, most systems without a vest support are very difficult to use (wrist-wise), after even a short time.

I need lots of shots of alleys, walking, trails, etc., so I am assuming a vest system is the only way to go.

Anyone know about the smaller systems, without a vest, like SteayTracker, and the like.

What about the Glidecam system I mentioned above?

Any experience shared would be appreciated.
 
What's your budget?

Are you sure you want to do deep DOF (35mm adapter) shots with Steadicam? That's tough to keep in focus and often unnecesarry. Consider carefully.

- Mikko
 
I understand. You are right, probably not. I added that, just to indicate what my mazimum weight might be. Some of these stabilizers won't take the HVX200's weight, not to mention what we might add to them, like the CinePorter, etc.

I am leaning toward the Glidecam setup described above. I feel the smaller (non-vest) setups may not have the stability needed.
 
Merlewine, no matter what you choose, go vest support. I have the glidecam series (2000/4000pro). The glidecam works great, but it is a burden on your wrist... with a M2 setup I would not think twice. You are correct on wanting a vest support.
 
Hi Michael ! I've been looking at various stabilization systems for a while now and reckon it comes down to two basic questions; 1... what do you require it for and 2 ... how much your willing to spend; for me these are the key considerations. I spent a long time looking at shoulder mounts, Zacuto Rig, and supports such as the DVRig Pro, Pag Orbiter etc and decided that most of these could not comfortably take the weight of the HVX including accessories such as a 7' HD monitor, cineporter, battery pack , mattebox, rods; for any long period of time.
My personal favorite would be the Steadicam Flyer, I've seen it in action and it looks like a sturdy and reliable piece of equipment.
I realise its not a cheap initial investment, but it will pay for itself in the long run. If you cant afford a new one check the second hand market. Saying that I've been offered a great deal on a Varizoom Aviator and its just too good to turn down. Like I said it comes down to how much you want to spend and what you want to fit on it.
Good luck with the quest !
 
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Thanks Prodigy. I Did in deed mean Shallow DoF (that's what I get for posting on a Monday morning)


I'll agree with Ray that the Flyer is by far the best bet. But it may also be outside your budget.
If you are planning to Fly just the HVX then the Merlin would work for you too. And thanks to a cool new accessory plate you can get a Radio Mic on there with the camera too.

I wouldn't go for the Aviator - Varizoom's arms (and to an extent their vests too) are total Crap. They seemed ot have missed the mark on their design and teh result is a very limeted range of movement and an extramly stiff arm. I'd pass them up.

- Mikko
 
Thanks to all of you for the suggestions. At this point, the die is cast, and I opted for the following rig:

Glidecam Smooth Shooter with support vest, dyna-elastic arm
Glidecam 4000 Pro Camera Stabilizing System
5.6 4:3 Monitor w/ two batteries
Stainless Steel Arm Post
Various weights
Special docking bracket
Manuals
Smith-Victor carrying case for the above.

I purchased all of this, used, for $2000, which is within the budget for our current project.

After I train for the bionic-man part of this (learn to use the system), I will let everyone know how the equipment worked for us.
 
Good luck Michael! That setup looks like it can take you far. Remember, the equipment is only half the battle. If you learn it well and use it creatively, it will out shine those really expensive bastards!!!

:)
 
Stabilizers

Stabilizers

Mikko,

I realize you are very proud of your Steadicam gear as you should be but calling my stuff (VariZoom) "crap" is really unfair.

The arms are not stiff and work very well. Much of vest support components are made by the same suppliers that supply Steadicam which makes your comment even more unfair.

I sell more and more VariZoom stabilizers rigs each year and sales continue to grow. The Aviator and Black Hawk are huge sellers and the customers that OWN the rigs USE THE RIGS do great work and make money using the VariZoom stabilizers. They also save a pile of money when they purchase.

Anyone interested in a VariZoom Aviator or other stabilizer can get credible references from individuals that use the rigs in business regularly.

Visit our site and try the products for yourself. I invite the comparison and recognize there are alternatives and interested parties should shop around before they buy.

We got a neat little clip from WEVA News sent to us that they had taken at our NAB booth. You can see that clip and other demo clips of the rigs in action at our site.

See the WEVA News minute here:

http://www.weva.com/wevatv/newclips/2006-05-16/Varizoom_Aviator.mov



Tom McKay


http://www.VariZoom.com
 
Tom,
I think you are due a explanation of my comments. Thoguh harsh, I don't belive they where out of place.

I tired out your full line of rigs (except the Blackhawk sled which wasn't avilable at the time, and the UltraLite) at NAB with an open objective mind and presented myself as a normal inexperienced user and let your sales staff show me how to use your rigs. This is what I found:


Your Seld which you use on the Flowcam, Prolite and Aviator is prety good. The gimble seemed smooth, and the base does the job. Thoguh a little more adjustability would be nice. The stage, which is identical to the Flyer and even takes the same dovetail plate I was told, works well too. The post could be a little thicker, but overall the sled is fine.

The Flowcam - which is a sled for the Navigator - is a cool idea. And I really like it. It works well as a monopod,a nd the stabilizing feature is handy. However the axis of the gimble arn't aligned and therfore it's not properly free. It's possible to actually lock up teh gimble and turn teh post from just the handle, that is supposed to be totally isolated. I fyou work aroudn this, teh flowpod can do a good job of stabilizing. And as an aditional feature to a monopod I think it's good. Just put a proper gimble in there.


The Flowcam and Navigator arms suck. I'm sorry, but they really do.
The sprung section booms smoothly enough, but that's it. The "upper" (closer to vest) section is too short and doesn't have enough horizontal movement. Due to it's attachment point at the center of the vest, it sevearly limits the position of the sled. You can't pass the sled across in front of yoru body without making a HUGE arc out in front of you. In adition the horizontal hinge at the 'elbow' on the arm I used was quite literally so stiff that I had to move it manually, it wouldn't move by itself as it shoudl to alow the arm to move with the sled. I strongly recomend you go back and take a look at the desing of this arm to improve horizontal range and freedom of movement.

The larger arms on the Prolite and the Aviator are better, but still not quite 'there'. The arm sections are the same length and have a proper "elbow" and "shoulder", which really helps. but their horizonal movement is still a little sticky. They boom fine. And due to that center of teh vest connection, they are still limited in their range of movement. It's still impossible to bring the sled across in front of the body without that huge arc.


The vest is comfterble and of a fine quality. However the attachment to the arm isn't right. First off, some way of adjusting the arm's angle (like the "Socket Block" in other rigs) to the oprator is important. I coudl feel the sled trying to fly away from me a little, but I couldn't adjust for that without leaning my body at a funny angle. Ironically the stiffness in the arm helped hold the sled close.
The biggest problem with the vest thgouh is the attachment point to the arm. Your vests, as many others too, attach to the arm in the center. Though this is simpler and lighter (and makes the vest ambidextrous) it highly restricts the movement of the arm. No arm can pass the sled directly past the vest connection all the way. The connection point on yrou vest prevents the seld form passing across in front of the operator, there's a point where yrou sled just can't go. I'd recomend you look into a way of moving that mountign point off teh center of the vest. Ideally the arm - which normally has proportionas and a similar movemnt to your human arm - is mounted almostbelow yoru shoulder, off to the side. This way the rig's arm and the operator's arm can move together, including all the way across in front of the body.


So over all, thgouh of good aulity, there are some serious design flaws with yrou rigs that really limit operating. Limitations which may go unrealized by someoen who hans't used a system without these problems. I strongly recomend anyone looking to buy a system to try that system, btu also compare others as well. For some your systems may be adequate, but in my oppinion some parts of it are, as I said in my previous post, crap.


I don't normally publically go into huge depth when describing the problems with a system, but take this more as advice and feedback as how to improve rather than slagging of your system. You have got to sort out that horizontal isolation and freedom of movement, as well as you've built the other parts of the system. Just as a car that has a great engine and body, if you can't steer it properly, it still needs just a little more work.

- Mikko
 
Comments

Comments

Mikko,

I appreciate the constructive criticism, detailed analysis and positive comments although I still think the use of "crap" is unduly harsh.

Believe me nobody appreciates criticism more than I and of course when presented in a point by point basis it gains more respect. Now although not all points you raised do I agree with it is certainly noted.

No matter what your affection for the rig you use is it is undeniable that there are alternatives. To clarify when you came to our booth so did many others that also tried on the alternative choices including the brand you use and then later returned and bought our systems. We get comments where people boast of better control, more comfort, and enough money saved to buy a second camera.

This is why I increased the booth size again for NAB 2007 and I expect more of the same in the future.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

http://www.VariZoom.com
 
Don't mean to wake the dead on this one, but I'm in the market for a Camera Stabilizer for my HVX/M2/7" monitor and some other goodies once I can afford them. Approximately 20lbs for right now.

I've posted a thread about the FS PRO SM1 from Canada, but have yet to hear anyone respond.
The thread is located here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=206988

From what I've read, the Steadicam Flyer LE is by far the best for this weight. I unfortunately do not have $8k to spend right now on it. unless this thread tells me otherwise ;-)

The FS PRO SM1 is about $3k, but I'm not spending hard earned money on something if the company won't respond. (see my thread mentioned above)

I've also came across the Indian based "eBay" stabilizer (can't find a link at the moment), which from my past eBay buying experience, is more or less "quantity vs quality" and in this case...quantity won. (= waste of money). I read a thread on this forum about these and they said the rings are plastic and some other lousy production changes that were made to bring the price down.

Lastly, I'm looking at the Varizoom Black Hawk. With the bad reviews I've read on this thread, I'm a little weary on purchasing it. I do own the Varizoom 7" external monitor, which is nice, but the battery doesn't last longer than 45 mins - 1 hour.

Any reviews or info on any these setups would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much for your time.

Note that I've already read this thread: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=81683
That thread is outdated and it's time to re-update it :-)
 
-A seasoned operator can produce acceptable images from any rig. The difference is a properly built rig with on-board tools to assist you will make you job easier.

-Most operators without proper training and/or experience will not know the difference between a good shot or a bad shot. If they are at the bottom of the totem pole rate, most likely their clients wont either.

-Steadicam holds most of the patents to the latest and the greatest developments in the business and probably produce one of best rigs out there, but you have pay for that. There is no free lunch.

-There are many manufacturers out there from gear that will rival that of steadicam and all the way down to ones that are useful as a chocolate teapot. Most of the true competitors are at high-end range.

I truly do not believe you can make an informed decision on a camera stabilization system on a forum (ofcourse you can try www.steadicamforum.com). I recommend you reach out to your local operators and ask for help. The stabilizer community if very friendly and helpful.

You can find local ops here:

http://www.steadicam-ops.com/index.shtml
 
If you don't have the $8k to throw away, then don't buy an poor "off brand" clone; get the real thing. There aren't many worthy rigs in this price range.


- Mikko
 
I fear the words "Our Ebay rigs are just as good" are rapidly marching towards this conversation with ill-deserved confidence.
 
emretufekci, all your points are completely valid and understood. Can't agree more with you on this point:

-Most operators without proper training and/or experience will not know the difference between a good shot or a bad shot. If they are at the bottom of the totem pole rate, most likely their clients wont either.
Click to expand...
What about the Varizoom AvaiatorMX? I just put my rig together and it totaled to 16lbs. That's the HVX/M2/7"monitor/200mm lens.

mikkowilson, I definitely hear you about not wasting money, but for the price range I'm in and the type of work I'll be doing (weddings/commercials/walk-throughs, etc) I believe it will fit fine.

I understand Steadicam earned it's reputation for a reason, but for $5k this rig seems to be very nice.

Any quarrels with this one ;-)
 
I didn't fly the Varizoom rigs at NAB this year (I'm at the Las Vegas airport, waiting for my flight home as I write this), so I don't have hands-on experience with the AviatorMX.

I can't provide the sort of details I did earlier in this thread 4 years ago. Especially when it comes to actual performance. I can say that some of the key design issues with the arm appear to have been improved .. (both sections of the arm the same length, and the ability to attach off to the side of the vest instead of the center). So the rig *looks* much better.

Had I have noticed the new rig, I would have probably given it a fly; but there are so many manufacturers at NAB that I no longer have the time to run around flying all the different rigs. (I didn't fly the new Steadicam Zephyr this year either; though it's only a sled change, so I'd be very confident in it's performance.)

- Mikko
 
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