Camera advice, 170, 150, ac90?

F

firehawk

Veteran
Hi everyone,

I have 2 hmc150s and an hck10 (miniature POV version of hmc40).

I am looking at either an hpx170, ac90 or another hmc150.

What I need is another camera that can pull good green screen keys for corporate work and effects, and also join the existing lineup for multicamera events (weddings, dance recitals, etc).
I wanted an hpx250 buts it's just too expensive still.

The hmc150 is good enough for me in low light and even though it's 1080 isn't as sharp as the newer cameras, it's ok as well.*
So if the 170 is at least that good it should be good enough. The ac90 is sharper I know, and also can zoom in a bit further, since it doesn't start out as wide, which is good. It also does 1080 60p which the others don't which would be great, and has superior OIS.*

What I like about the 150.
Good low light.
Good enough image.
CCDs.
Long recording time

What I don't like about the 150
Not enough zoom.
AVCHD not great for keying

I tend to shoot events normally 720/60p.*

So my specific questions I guess are:

1. With the new 64GB p2 cards, what is the recording time per card on the 170?
2. Will it's dvcpro hd video be less sharp than the 150 since the 150 ends up 1080x1920 after it's pixel shifting whereas the 170 doesn't due to the dvcpro hd format?
3. Will those cameras match up ok in multi camera shoots?
4. Can the 170, with it's 4:2:2 pull much better keys?
5. Using premiere cs5 will AVCHD and dvcpro cut together alright on the same timeline?

I also have plenty of hpx/dvx style batteries whereas if I bought another 150 would require more batteries.

Thank you for any help/advice
 
The HPX170 and HMC150 are the same lens, and same chips. The two cameras should match extremely well.

1. With the new 64GB p2 cards, what is the recording time per card on the 170?
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About 1 hour in 1080 or in 720/60p. 2.5 hours in 720/24p.

2. Will it's dvcpro hd video be less sharp than the 150 since the 150 ends up 1080x1920 after it's pixel shifting whereas the 170 doesn't due to the dvcpro hd format?
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They'll be probably about the same. The recording format of AVCHD does retain 1920x1080, and the DVCPRO-HD format is 1280x1080, but the HMC150 and HPX170 only deliver about 1440x810 worth of image detail overall, so -- DVCPRO-HD has enough space to record just about all the detail the HPX170 can deliver. And it stores more color information due to its 4:2:2. So in terms of overall sharpness they should be quite comparable.

3. Will those cameras match up ok in multi camera shoots?
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HPX170 and HMC150 should match extremely well.

4. Can the 170, with it's 4:2:2 pull much better keys?
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Yes, better keying, especially in 1080p.
 
If I was you, I would buy another HMC150 and attach a Ninja or something similar to it. This would yield the best results. You would get full raster HD and a higher quality codec then DVCproHD. Also you would end up saving on P2 cards. HMC150 + ninja probably comes up the same as just the HPX170 alone.

If you're shooting weddings then just shot without the Ninja. But when shooting green screen work just plug the Ninja to the camera an away you go!:)
IMHO this is the best solution. The only problem you could have is that the Ninja is going to be excessive when shooting, as it's just another thing to worry about on the shoot and
to carry around. But seeing as you would only needed it for studio use this really isn't a problem.

Also I would never go into the P2 system, at this time of age. Even Panasonic is bringing out their new microP2 system. Cameras in the future will probably use only microP2 cards. And the big (current) P2 cards will be used in the big ENG cameras. I doubt that P2 cards will remain in the sub 10k Panasonic cameras. They are to expensive to be used in cameras that aren't meant to be used in such high end production environments. This is just my opinion though.

So my advice is buy another HMC150 and add a cheap external recorder to it!:)
 
Thank you. That is an idea I was thinking about.
That brings up another question. Do the new f series P2 cards support avc ultra?
I wonder if the full size p2 cards will soon lose significant value when micro p2 comes.
 
I have no idea. Search around a bit and you'll find out.
Why is this a question anyway? Do you plan on upgrading to other Panasonic P2 cameras in the future??
 
I'm still looking into this.
An atomos ninja2 costs about $1000, an hmc150 about $2700.

The hpx170 is about $2995 with each p2 card running about $659. I would need three.

I like the ability to record 4:2:2 in camera and the option of editing dvcprohd on my old backup NLE if necessary, but
It looks like another hmc150 with a recorder may be the best option for me.
Plus I'm also looking at a Sony action camera which I think I could attach the ninja2 to for a monitor for pole cam and other unique shots so it would be dual purpose monitor/recorder for both cameras.
 
KINOKS said:
If I was you, I would buy another HMC150 and attach a Ninja or something similar to it. This would yield the best results. You would get full raster HD and a higher quality codec then DVCproHD. Also you would end up saving on P2 cards. HMC150 + ninja probably comes up the same as just the HPX170 alone.

If you're shooting weddings then just shot without the Ninja. But when shooting green screen work just plug the Ninja to the camera an away you go!:)
IMHO this is the best solution. The only problem you could have is that the Ninja is going to be excessive when shooting, as it's just another thing to worry about on the shoot and
to carry around. But seeing as you would only needed it for studio use this really isn't a problem.

Also I would never go into the P2 system, at this time of age. Even Panasonic is bringing out their new microP2 system. Cameras in the future will probably use only microP2 cards. And the big (current) P2 cards will be used in the big ENG cameras. I doubt that P2 cards will remain in the sub 10k Panasonic cameras. They are to expensive to be used in cameras that aren't meant to be used in such high end production environments. This is just my opinion though.

So my advice is buy another HMC150 and add a cheap external recorder to it!:)
Click to expand...

I am curious how you are going to get full raster output from a HMC150 when it doesn't have full raster chips? Also, is the component or HDMI output better than the internal recording? What do you really get for output? It might be there, but you would want to check before buying a recorder. If you need long form recording from the 170, it has SDI-HD output which is a better setup than HDMI if for no other reason than the plugs. I'll admit P2 on small cams might be going out, but it is still a very good and extremely reliable system. I have respect for AVCHD but given the choice, I'd take DVCPro-HD anytime which is an intra-frame codec. No doubt the P2 HPX170 is more expensive with cards, but there are a lot of used 170s on the market at bargain prices.

Grant
 
ggrantly said:
I am curious how you are going to get full raster output from a HMC150 when it doesn't have full raster chips?
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I was actually only referring to the matrix and not the actual resolution. I know that the chips are only 960*560 and that the camera is capable of resolving app. 650 lines of res. But when shooting DVCproHD in NTSC land you are stuck with a matrix at only 1280*1080 but if you attach an external recored you get full raster 1920*1080. I know that the actual resolution is at the 1280*720 level but when you compare the full raster and the ntsc hd pictures you will see an increase in sharpness, albeit a small one. So that's what I had in mind. But hmc150 already records in full raster so this is a moot point:)
 
Shooting using the onboard sdhc and p2:
If you were shooting with an hmc150 and hpx170 at an event both on tight shots, are they close enough that you could cut between the two shots without most people being able to see a noticeable difference?
How about wide shots?

Thank you again everyone for the help. I don't have access to a 170 or dvcpro hd footage to compare.
I don't like the extra expense that 3 p2 cards requires, but I do like the onboard intra frame 4:2:2 and reliability p2 offers. The lower resolution concerns me somewhat yet as Barry said the format is close to what the cameras chips can deliver anyway. Not counting the fact I need an SSD and another hmc battery (I already have hpx batteries) a ninja 2 recorder + hmc150 would be over $1000 less but extra hassle, yet extra flexibility at the same time providing a better monitor for the 150 and a monitor recorder for my pole cam.
When connected to the ninja 2 will the 150 also record to the onboard sdhc card simultaneously?
 
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The high price of P2 cards IMO is no longer an issue. I have invested in used R series P2 cards since they are very robust. The last ones I bought were 16 GB and I think I paid $150 each.
 
firehawk said:
Shooting using the onboard sdhc and p2:
If you were shooting with an hmc150 and hpx170 at an event both on tight shots, are they close enough that you could cut between the two shots without most people being able to see a noticeable difference?
How about wide shots?
Click to expand...

I don't know if the 171 and 150 have the same internals. But most likely they do so the picture can most likely be calibrated via picture profile settings to match between the cameras. The difference in codecs should not be noticed, maybe in some special situations, but otherwise - no. But it's hard to calibrate 2 cameras to look exactly alike. The pictures will probably very very similar but a tweak in post wouldn't hurt. Barry can probably shed some more insight on the similarities between this two cams.


firehawk said:
Thank you again everyone for the help. I don't have access to a 170 or dvcpro hd footage to compare.
I don't like the extra expense that 3 p2 cards requires, but I do like the onboard intra frame 4:2:2 and reliability p2 offers. The lower resolution concerns me somewhat yet as Barry said the format is close to what the cameras chips can deliver anyway.
The ninja 2 recorder + hmc150 would be over $1000 less but extra hassle, yet extra flexibility at the same time providing a better monitor for the 150 and a monitor recorder for my pole cam.
When connected to the ninja 2 will the 150 also record to the onboard sdhc card simultaneously?
Click to expand...

It's close yes but you are still loosing detail. And as for the P2 vs SD: this are older cheap cameras so go with the cheap medium to complement the package!:) SD that is. As for the used P2 prices the lowest I've seen a 64GB P2 go for was probably around 450$ I think... As for the monitoring option using the Ninja I wouldn't count on it that much as it's not the best of monitors out there. Sure you can use it but don't expect much.

I think that you can record onboard simultaneously. The video signal that travels through the HDMI is meant for monitoring - Ninja basically just records what it sees, I don't think that there is any back and forth info travelling through the HDMI.
 
I'm leaning towards a 150 due to these reasons/concerns:

1 Cost

2 Image quality. I shoot a lot of 720 /60p and read there is a noticeable difference.
So it seems the 150 will produce a better image "in camera" and when using an external recorder definitely produce a better image and maybe even better keying once the codec is bypassed achieving 4:2:2 and higher resolution.

I still *want* an hpx170 but...
 
I have also been considering adding a HPX-170 to work with a HMC-150 that we got a couple months ago. The so-called "sweet spot" on the HMC-150 is 720/24. We are still playing around with various settings. But we have gotten good results with our HMC-150 at this setting. Does the HPX-170 have a similar "sweet spot"?
 
I Think most agree that 720 is the sweet for the hmc150. It sounds to me like 1080 may be sweeter for the hpx170 than 720 is due to bit rate and codec resolution reduction. Sounds like the 150 does better at 720 than the 170. Maybe someone more knowledgeable will chime in again to confirm.
 
No, the HMC150 sweet spot is definitely 1080p. Barry Green concluded that long ago after saying that it was 720p the sweet spot.

The color information is greater in 1080p than 720p.
 
In camera scaling is never a good thing when talking about image quality. It's better to shot 1080 and then downscale to 720 if you need 720 that is...
I notice more aliasing if the camera is set to 720 (HPX) - so I never shoot in 720 the only exception is when I desperately need more record time.
 
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