CAME-TV Chinese 1200 Watt HMI - Video Review

T

tommygdawg

Well-known member
Hello, everyone!

Some of you may have been following my thread over in the cinematography area about Chinese HMI knockoffs. Beyond that, anyone who's really wanted to get into using some bright lights but hasn't wanted to pay upwards of $7,000 for an Arri HMI has also probably looked at these knockoff HMIs. I picked up this light about a month ago now. There were virtually no reviews online so it was a scary process, but well worth it. I've documented my full experience and reviewed the quality of this light for anyone who's interested in getting some cheap HMI lighting or just is new to HMI lighting in general.


I also have to give Dennis Hingsberg (goes by starcentral on here) a shoutout. He originally recommended me to photolight and has also been very happy with their 575 watt HMI, so that's two people happy with them!

If you're interested, check it out and let me know what you think or if you have any questions!

- Tommy
 
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Hey man, that was really good.

Questions:

1. - have you put a meter in front of it, like at the good old 1-meter mark to see what the foot-candle output actually is?

2. - are there any lasting green hues to it that you're gelling out? (yeah, I know HMI's generally all do a little bit of that.)
 
Glad someone finally reviewed one of these things!

Couple notes - "you're not supposed to turn on an HMI until it's cooled down"??? Well, you have a cold-strike unit, that won't restart until the globe has cooled down (vs. a hot-restrike which you can turn on and off as needed). There's no "rule" for this, it just depends on the unit. But - and this is huge - trying to restrike a hot lamp in a cold-start fixture should just "not turn on" - the ballast should trip an internal switch and stop the process. I've never seen a cold strike bulb burn up like that.

So really, one big minus for saving $$ on this unit: you can fry a pricey cold-start globe if you're not extremely careful. BUT - the market for this light isn't rental or big productions - it's someone who doesn't want to rent, owner-operator. A market that babies their gear (I'm in that market myself).Maybe not a huge deal.

I'd like to know if the unit is capable of hot restrike with a different (HR) globe though. (I'd look into that). They do advertise these as "As-Arri".

I also noticed you got the stamped-steel ballast; a few folks on RedUser have noted that the extruded aluminum ballast has been more dependable and more quiet; it seems like a direct Arri knockoff. In fact, they advertise it as useable with an Arri light head.

I think Barry Green bought one of these and called it a "light cannon". I'd really prefer a par at this size myself - fresnels have about the worst efficiency of any fixture, and 1.2 HMI seems like overkill for the things you want the fresnel lens on. For small-crew commercial/web and indie film, seems these will be more for fighting the sun, faking the moon, sun through windows… all of which a par would be better at.

But then, this much light for under a grand? I could see going for it. Thanks for the review - I'd post it over on RedUser as well.
 
Interesting.

I don't want to be a pain, but the explanation of power factor given in the video isn't quite right. It's not an efficiency thing - something can have a very poor power factor and still be reasonably efficient. The technical definition of power factor is complicated, but it may cause your wattmeter to misread - although usually it would cause it to under-read.

You're probably right in that the ballast is probably quite inefficient. Many of them are, on a theoretical electrical basis, including the expensive ones. It would work hard to dissipate more than 200W, though.

P
 
DPStewart said:
Hey man, that was really good.

Questions:

1. - have you put a meter in front of it, like at the good old 1-meter mark to see what the foot-candle output actually is?

2. - are there any lasting green hues to it that you're gelling out? (yeah, I know HMI's generally all do a little bit of that.)
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Thanks for the questions! I have yet to do a proper test with a light meter, I'll get to it later today and let you know. I think I'm just so used to my Arri 650 tungsten being my most powerful light that anything this bright just blew me away :P

2. I haven't noticed any green hues. White balancing in camera to between 5600k and 6000k looks pretty rock solid. The opening segment of the video was shot without any gel on the light and it looked great. Unfortunately I don't have a colorimeter so I can't do a proper test. From what I understand though any green tint would be down to the quality of the globe and not necessarily the head, I could be wrong though.

QuickHitRecord said:
Finally, a real review!

Very curious about DPStewart's first question as well.
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Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!

Michael Carter said:
Glad someone finally reviewed one of these things!

Couple notes - "you're not supposed to turn on an HMI until it's cooled down"??? Well, you have a cold-strike unit, that won't restart until the globe has cooled down (vs. a hot-restrike which you can turn on and off as needed). There's no "rule" for this, it just depends on the unit. But - and this is huge - trying to restrike a hot lamp in a cold-start fixture should just "not turn on" - the ballast should trip an internal switch and stop the process. I've never seen a cold strike bulb burn up like that.

So really, one big minus for saving $$ on this unit: you can fry a pricey cold-start globe if you're not extremely careful. BUT - the market for this light isn't rental or big productions - it's someone who doesn't want to rent, owner-operator. A market that babies their gear (I'm in that market myself).Maybe not a huge deal.

I'd like to know if the unit is capable of hot restrike with a different (HR) globe though. (I'd look into that). They do advertise these as "As-Arri".

I also noticed you got the stamped-steel ballast; a few folks on RedUser have noted that the extruded aluminum ballast has been more dependable and more quiet; it seems like a direct Arri knockoff. In fact, they advertise it as useable with an Arri light head.

I think Barry Green bought one of these and called it a "light cannon". I'd really prefer a par at this size myself - fresnels have about the worst efficiency of any fixture, and 1.2 HMI seems like overkill for the things you want the fresnel lens on. For small-crew commercial/web and indie film, seems these will be more for fighting the sun, faking the moon, sun through windows… all of which a par would be better at.

But then, this much light for under a grand? I could see going for it. Thanks for the review - I'd post it over on RedUser as well.
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You're right, I should have been more specific about the qualifications for whether or not you can quickly restrike an HMI. I had, however, read that even if you have a hot restrike globe and fixture that hot restriking can shorten the life of your globe. So, for me, even if I have a hot restrike unit I'll try to avoid it.

I did get the cheaper "stamped-steel" ballast, as you put it. That's because I bought their "economic unit." It costs $1,000 (for fixture AND ballast) compared to $2,600 (give or take) for their higher end unit (also for fixture AND ballast) which is the exact Arri clone. Because this is the cheaper ballast, I don't think it's capable of hot restrike. The higher end ballasts on their site and ebay page list hot restrike as a feature and it's not mentioned at all for these cheaper ones. I won't be testing it again to find out :P

Agreed on PARs. I'd love to have one and will probably get one next a little ways down the road. However, for some reason, the PARs are much more expensive. As I said, you can get this kit (fixture plus ballast) for $1,000. But if you want a PAR kit you have to get it with the exact Arri clone ballast, which shoots the price up to $2,600ish. Unfortunately they don't offer the ability to purchase heads separately.


Phil Rhodes said:
Interesting.

I don't want to be a pain, but the explanation of power factor given in the video isn't quite right. It's not an efficiency thing - something can have a very poor power factor and still be reasonably efficient. The technical definition of power factor is complicated, but it may cause your wattmeter to misread - although usually it would cause it to under-read.

You're probably right in that the ballast is probably quite inefficient. Many of them are, on a theoretical electrical basis, including the expensive ones. It would work hard to dissipate more than 200W, though.

P
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Thanks, Phil, for the correction. Once I understand it better I'll have to do a future video correcting it. I'm still learning a lot when it comes to electronics and it helps to have people such as yourself so I can figure out how it all works :)
 
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Hot restrike ballasts are just different designs. The same lamp can be fitted to both types of ballast, and the restrict ability is down to the system. I'm never quite sure the claims made about the hot strike ability of the lamp are as cut and dried as they are advertised. The ability to strike while the internal pressure is high requires more 'oomph' to get the initial strike. The over voltage spike lights up the hot envelope, but I'm convinced that there is a definite reduction on lamp life. Groups of lights that get switched off accidentally and then restrike automatically eat up lamps more quickly. My invoices show this to be the case. Even a few minutes would seem to help.

I smiled a bit at the comments about PAR vs Fresnel, and how a Fresnel lens is less efficient. Well, it's an extra obstruction to the light, so of course it's less efficient, especially when dusty, which most are - BUT - the quality of light is so much nicer. Soft edges, more flattering to facial imperfections like zits and scars, and usually a very wide beam width range. I'll take a Fresnel as a key, or fill any time.

On the chinese front, I quite like the tungsten ones, despite the known problems with quality of metal work and electrical stuff - but discharge lights can explode viciously, scatter red hot shards everywhere, and require flashover protection due to the high voltages, and the internals rarely seem adequate for this. The lack of proper UV shielding and on some, no interlock to turn them off if they are opened. Looking at a lit discharge source is painful, and damaging - even a quick glimpse leaves a black blob in your vision for ages, and arc eye is common too. I like chinese stuff, but not with the kinds of strike up voltages we're talking about here.
 
paulears said:
Hot restrike ballasts are just different designs. The same lamp can be fitted to both types of ballast, and the restrict ability is down to the system. I'm never quite sure the claims made about the hot strike ability of the lamp are as cut and dried as they are advertised. The ability to strike while the internal pressure is high requires more 'oomph' to get the initial strike. The over voltage spike lights up the hot envelope, but I'm convinced that there is a definite reduction on lamp life. Groups of lights that get switched off accidentally and then restrike automatically eat up lamps more quickly. My invoices show this to be the case. Even a few minutes would seem to help.

I smiled a bit at the comments about PAR vs Fresnel, and how a Fresnel lens is less efficient. Well, it's an extra obstruction to the light, so of course it's less efficient, especially when dusty, which most are - BUT - the quality of light is so much nicer. Soft edges, more flattering to facial imperfections like zits and scars, and usually a very wide beam width range. I'll take a Fresnel as a key, or fill any time.

On the chinese front, I quite like the tungsten ones, despite the known problems with quality of metal work and electrical stuff - but discharge lights can explode viciously, scatter red hot shards everywhere, and require flashover protection due to the high voltages, and the internals rarely seem adequate for this. The lack of proper UV shielding and on some, no interlock to turn them off if they are opened. Looking at a lit discharge source is painful, and damaging - even a quick glimpse leaves a black blob in your vision for ages, and arc eye is common too. I like chinese stuff, but not with the kinds of strike up voltages we're talking about here.
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Well I guess if you have the money to burn you go right ahead and buy your $7,000-10,000 light. Honestly, these Chinese lights are fine if you know their weaknesses and take good care of you gear. Yeah, it doesn't have a switch to shut the light down if you open the door. So just make sure the door is latched. Yeah, it may not have proper UV protection so make sure to get a UVS bulb or replace the glass on the fixture with proper Arri glass. Or here's another idea, paint one side of your fresnel with this if you really want to be doubly safe: Exo-Armour High Temp Clear Coat. Oh, and if looking at a lit discharge source is painful, don't look at it.

These lights can be a great resource for anyone who needs the power they provide but just doesn't have the money or rental facilities to get a name brand. Respect the light and you'll generally be fine. Seriously, I think a lot of people on the indie film forums just live on another planet sometimes. The average person doesn't have the money or ability to get an Arri, that's just the way it is.

It's kind of like the rich folks who forget that the rest of the world doesn't commute in private jets.
 
paulears said:
I smiled a bit at the comments about PAR vs Fresnel, and how a Fresnel lens is less efficient. Well, it's an extra obstruction to the light, so of course it's less efficient, especially when dusty, which most are - BUT - the quality of light is so much nicer. Soft edges, more flattering to facial imperfections like zits and scars, and usually a very wide beam width range. I'll take a Fresnel as a key, or fill any time.
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My comment wasn't about he fresnel lens but the fixture itself. My pars (source 4 tungsten and source 4 575 HMI) have lenses too, and are just insanely efficient fixtures. To quote myself, "1.2 HMI seems like overkill for the things you want the fresnel lens on. For small-crew commercial/web and indie film, seems these will be more for fighting the sun, faking the moon, sun through windows… all of which a par would be better at."

I have fresnels from 1" to 8" and love the things. For an "I own it HMI", I'd rather have a 575 par than a 1.2 fresnel - as far as real usability goes, they're close to the same amount of light. If I were filling sets with 4 or 6 or 8K HMIs, yeah, a 1.2 fresnel would see a lot of use. But for the small-gig kind of stuff that is the bread & butter of a lot of the posters here… sure, I'd take a 1.2 fresnel if ya gave me one, but I'd get way more use out of a par.
 
tommygdawg said:
I did get the cheaper "stamped-steel" ballast, as you put it. That's because I bought their "economic unit." It costs $1,000 (for fixture AND ballast) compared to $2,600 (give or take) for their higher end unit (also for fixture AND ballast) which is the exact Arri clone.
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I'm assuming that most of these come from the same factory, but could be wrong… but the 1.2k with the extruded ballast has been at a grand or so for some time now. Though the Came "brand" is gaining respect in the states (I have one of their steadicams and it's really very good) so maybe you get a better product from them? Someone would have to get both and see if they're the same thing I guess...
 
Would you please wearing shoes when using an high voltage chinese magnetic ballast ?
You can also remove the chinese word from the previous sentence. :lipsrseal and start wearing shoes
when you use any fixture !

Cheers!
 
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The problem is that in the UK, it is common, and perhaps even standard practice for many venue these lights would be used in to ask for their safety test record, or a sticker proving a test has taken place. Of course, a few idiots write their own stickers without testing, but reputable businesses, who have insurance and would like the insurance to be good and not void, test their own kit. We have a range of kit that can be bought to do this and even testing courses people go on if they are green or need to prove competence. In short, if you plug in a Chinese discharge fixture, the tester checks for leakage and ground continuity, and other parameters. If it says fail - then you are STUPID to use it. Access to high voltage components like the ignitors needs restricted access - or it is illegal, a civil offence here, unless death or injury is caused when it becomes criminal. Anyone who uses equipment that does not have these safety features is negligent. In the EU, importation of this equipment would not be legal either, as it cannot possibly have the CE marking without these safety features. Obviously, customs can't check this kind of thing so there are plenty of people using potentially lethal equipment quite happily, perhaps even forging safety documentation. That's for them. Some people have a cavalier attitude to electrical and user safety.

I have been using discharge lighting for a long time now - probably the late 70s, and even back then, they had interlocks on. I got one shock when changing a lamp, and the microswitch had failed, and it tried to ignite as I was relamping (reglobing sounds odd?). It was VERY painful. I've seen people come out in rashes when an HMI had no UV filter, and I've damaged expensive floors with red hot lamp fragments from a fixture with a bodged lens that shattered.

All my tungsten Chinese fixtures needed modifications to make them electrically safe. Some as they come out of the box, have no ground at all - the final short length of rubber from the switch to the fixture being two core, not three, or others have a ground, but a poor one - usually screws that are in painted components so not biting into the metal, just paint.

I had one discharge fixture that didn't even have fibre glass protection on the lamp cables, and without it, at some point the focus mechanism would rub the soft cable, and the arcing would be interesting, and if the housing wasn't grounded, then focusing it when it striked up would be interesting.
 
To expand on the above post, even if you are a one-man-band owner/operator, you do not work in absolute isolation. You shoot on locations and you have talent and perhaps a little bit of crew. As the owner of the gear you are legally liable should anything go wrong with it. So you might be willing to take risks for yourself, but what if you burn down someone's home or physically injure someone? If the moral question doesn't bother you, perhaps the legal/financial one might.

I'm not saying don't use this gear. I don't know enough about it to render an opinion. But I am saying that one should be cautious for reasons other than "Does it make light?".
 
I got one shock when changing a lamp, and the microswitch had failed, and it tried to ignite as I was relamping
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You tried to change a discharge lamp without removing power from the ballast? PAT testing will not save you from that sort of attitude!

As to the interlock thing in general, there are a lot of source four PAR mods out there which use 575W MSR, which is essentially HMI in a funny hat, and which do not have interlocks on the interchangeable lenses. These were sold commercially in quite large numbers. In my view this is adequately safe; the presumption of basic competence on the part of the user is reasonable with regard to professional equipment. We're not talking about consumer gear here. That said, I'm very happy that Osram now make UV-stop HMI lamps, of the type referenced in the video. Wouldn't rely on it solely, of course, but redundancy in safety is, er, not really redundant.

By the way, I wouldn't read too much into the failure of that nasty 1200W MSR on hot start. Many of the lamps supplied from China are made by Jenbo (check the base, it may say) and it is at least intended that they should hot start. I assume that one was just faulty. It's a bit alarming that the ballast kept trying to start a faulty lamp, but that can be difficult to detect electronically. Correct hot restart behaviour in my experience is that it just lights, immediately, and often with even less fizzing noises and flashes of light than a cold start.

P
 
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Phil Rhodes said:


You tried to change a discharge lamp without removing power from the ballast? PAT testing will not save you from that sort of attitude!

As to the interlock thing in general, there are a lot of source four PAR mods out there which use 575W MSR, which is essentially HMI in a funny hat, and which do not have interlocks on the interchangeable lenses. These were sold commercially in quite large numbers. In my view this is adequately safe; the presumption of basic competence on the part of the user is reasonable with regard to professional equipment. We're not talking about consumer gear here. That said, I'm very happy that Osram now make UV-stop HMI lamps, of the type referenced in the video. Wouldn't rely on it solely, of course, but redundancy in safety is, er, not really redundant.

By the way, I wouldn't read too much into the failure of that nasty 1200W MSR on hot start. Many of the lamps supplied from China are made by Jenbo (check the base, it may say) and it is at least intended that they should hot start. I assume that one was just faulty. It's a bit alarming that the ballast kept trying to start a faulty lamp, but that can be difficult to detect electronically. Correct hot restart behaviour in my experience is that it just lights, immediately, and often with even less fizzing noises and flashes of light than a cold start.

P
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Yeah, I'm not surprised that the cheaper ballast would be unable to detect a faulty lamp. That said, that's another thing I keep in mind as the owner/operator. I just always double check my lamp before/after firing the light (and after unplugging the unit!). I always unplug the light right away as soon as I'm done with it and I always keep a close eye on it when using it. But, I've had it over a month now and have used it a decent amount with no issues. Sure, in a "professional" setting an insurance provider may not like it. If that's the case then I'd just bite the bullet and do the 3 hour round trip to the rental facility (6 hours both way) and rent an Arri. But honestly, for most of my shoots that isn't an issue and this will serve fine.
 
Just a quick note: hot re-strike is a MUST. The past few months EVERY job at some point required a hot re-strike, sometimes literally moments before the take. To wait for the lamp to cool off is a privilege most of us can't afford. (BTW, it's closer to 3-5 minutes in case you DO have to wait rather then 15-20 as you assume in your video). To say it's not a big deal is a GROSS misinformation for people who might not know enough about working with HMIs (i was there at some point too).
 
Phil Rhodes said:


...As to the interlock thing in general, there are a lot of source four PAR mods out there which use 575W MSR, which is essentially HMI in a funny hat, and which do not have interlocks on the interchangeable lenses. These were sold commercially in quite large numbers. In my view this is adequately safe; the presumption of basic competence on the part of the user is reasonable with regard to professional equipment. We're not talking about consumer gear here. That said, I'm very happy that Osram now make UV-stop HMI lamps, of the type referenced in the video. Wouldn't rely on it solely, of course, but redundancy in safety is, er, not really redundant.
P
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Well, it's a world of difference to change a source 4 lens than to open the front of a fresnel, which may be why interlocks are more common?

I imagine it's barely possible to change a source 4 lens with a 575 tungsten globe running. Much less a discharge lamp! Even with the proper tool, profanity is often involved.

On the other hand, opening a fresnel lens holder with the unit on - I wouldn't do it with a 300! And yes, I've occasionally used a tungsten fresnel as an open-faced light in a pinch (by popping the lens)… but not when the thing is on. I barely move them when they're lit...
 
It's a lot easier if you put them in concave side out, which is counterintuitive but apparently the proper approach.
 
All the instructions I've seen are to put the lens in with the convex side facing the back - where the lens curves in towards the globe (which does look counterintuitive I guess). Never tested with the lens flipped though, don't know how that would affect the focus of the thing.
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
Just a quick note: hot re-strike is a MUST. The past few months EVERY job at some point required a hot re-strike, sometimes literally moments before the take. To wait for the lamp to cool off is a privilege most of us can't afford. (BTW, it's closer to 3-5 minutes in case you DO have to wait rather then 15-20 as you assume in your video). To say it's not a big deal is a GROSS misinformation for people who might not know enough about working with HMIs (i was there at some point too).
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There is no misinformation, gross or otherwise. The only misinformation may be that I overstated how long you have to wait before turning it back on. However, stating that waiting 15-20 minutes isn't a big deal is honestly just a subjective opinion. Anyone can decide for themselves if waiting 5, 10, or 15 minutes to turn a light back on is a big deal to them. I know that, for me, on my own shoots, waiting to restrike the lamp isn't a big deal if I'm careful about how I plan my shoot. If it's a big deal for you, that's understandable.
 
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