Calling all PAL users.

Brendan

Member
Hi all!
With this post I’m just trying to gage the extent of the problem I have discussed in earlier posts {i.e. interlaced artefacts, strobing, blurring of object edges with 25P footage played back on a PAL monitor}. Many of us PAL users seem to be experiencing this problem and I am yet to hear an NTSC user complain of this problem. {Any NTSC users with this problem please correct me!}

I have been in touch with Panasonic UK who said there have been no reports of this problem, so basically I’m trying to get some figures to show them. Are you an unhappy 25P PAL user with this problem? If so could you post me a message? {Likewise if you’re a 25P PAL user, happy with the image on a pal monitor during camera movement.}

If you’ve got some spare time why not conduct a little test as follows:-
1 On a piece of white a4 landscape, draw a hand full of diagonal lines with a thinish black marker from left to right, top to bottom- \\\\\
2 Plug cam into your PAL monitor and set up your cam on tripod about 5 foot away from card and zoom in all the way, focus, colour balance etc.
3 In interlaced mode, slowly pan back and forth from 1 end of the card to the other, the lines should remain clear with sharp edges.
4 Repeat step 3 in progressive mode. Do your lines look more like steps? Mine do.

From a progressive medium, we’d expect the lines to stutter slightly with a pan but surely there is no reason they should break up? This seems to occur on all horizontal & diagonal edges within the frame during a pan causing uncomfortable strobing and loss of fine detail.

I have a theory-
On the NTSC version in 24P the pull down creates mostly complete frames but there are the odd frames created during pull down where each field comes from a different frame, which Panasonic refer to as a ‘jitter frame’.


Is it possible that there is a fault in the way our cam records the A B fields to tape so our foot is made up entirely of 'Jitter Frames’? My 25P footage certainly shows all the artefacts you'd expect to see in 'jitter frames' and this would also explain why our 25P footage looks fine on a progressive Computer monitor, as you wouldn't see individual fields.

What do you think?
 
Re: Calling all PAL users.

Hi Brendan,

I'm sure my DVX100E has the same problem as yours, but I don't have the official Panasonic support in my country (Indonesia). However consider me as the group of people who is suffering from this kind of problem. Hopefully Panasonic will listen and investigate this matter properly. Thanks.
 
Re: Calling all PAL users.

Thanks for the post Jay- Nice to know I am not alone! Its annoying to constantly hear this Artist brush comparison, I know what they're getting at but there seems to be many seasoned 16mm / 35mm pros reporting the same problems. Also have they forgotten that 16mm was used for years before interlaced video with out the luxury of long set-ups, fine tuning the light, block through etc. within a run and gun news gathering environment and that footage showed no motion artefacts that we're experiencing! So why don’t we think a little less in terms of art brush metaphor and think a little more in terms of common sense!
 
Re: Calling all PAL users.

Yes, this is certainly a confusing issue. My footage looks great on a computer monitor but quite bad (buzzing on any horizontal lines) on a PAL monitor. I have worked with 25fps 16mm footage before and experienced no such problem.....why? With the dvx if you change the vertical sampling frequency to 'thick' it reduces the problem on a pal monitor, but also reduces your detail if you want to output to film or HD. I can't understand why we experience this with this camera but not with 16mm or 25p HD. It certainly hasn't got anything to do with 'how you use the camera'. Any comment of this, and a possible post production solution would be most welcome. Any PAL users shooting in 'thin mode' and getting good 50i broadcast masters?
 
Re: Calling all PAL users.

motts--you won't get a good picture on a video monitor shooting in thin mode because thin mode is not meant for video projection--it's film output only. I'm guessing that when people need to make video copies, they do the transfer from the film (however, I've never done this so I'm just guessing).

if you're not planning a film out, you should always shoot in thick mode.

also, to brendan, please remember that the majority of the users on this site are using the NTSC 24p version of the DVX. There could be a huge difference in the motion rendering look between your camera and ours.
 
Re: Calling all PAL users.

This is exactly what I’m trying to ascertain. Whether this motion is just a pal problem. But if you think about it there should be more motion issues with converting 24p to 30i {NTSC which involves a more complex pull creating these jitter frames} than 25p to 25i {PAL where 1 P frame is used to create both fields of the I frames….‘supposedly’}
 
Re: Calling all PAL users.

Although I have not got a dvx yet, waiting for a 100ae. I have downloaded some footage. Could it be the Pal TV system, not being able to correctly show the progressive DV output. Finalcutpro and using compressor for MPEG2, will remove jagged lines but you must set the compressor to PAL setting in presets not 24p or automatic. If you use 24p the jagged lines remain.


Is this correct ? If you have a NSTC dvx and use compressor keeping the settings to 24p, a nstc dvd player will play the 24p footage correctly because the 2.3 pulldown detection of the dvd player.

Also, the PAL tv system cannot display a progressive output from a true pal progressive dvd player because the scan rate is changed, unless you have a monitor capable of displaying HD images. Is this the same with the Pal DVX100ae ? ???
 
Re: Calling all PAL users.

Brendon, can't you record yr panned images straight on a VHS recorder (no DV recording first) and look at it in field by field mode in order to verify how a field looks like?
 
Re: Calling all PAL users.

Footage is on VHS, any idea how to view fields alone?
my VCR is not 2 advanced just standard SVHS & VHS {have no call for expensive studio VHS as most output is on DVD}
 
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