C100 or FS100U + Black Magic Cinema? FS100U dynamic range vs C100?

S

skital

Well-known member
I've been having a hard time deciding on the camera I want. I know I wanted the Black Magic Cinema Camera....bad, but there are things I LOVE about the Canon C100. The built in NDs, the fantastic low light performance, ease of use, 12-stop dynamic range throughout the ISO range, Wide dynamic range mode, Canon C-Log, etc. However, it's very expensive, so I can't see myself buying the C100 and the Black Magic Cinema Camera. So, then I got to thinking maybe a used Sony FS100U + the BMCC and the price would be about that one one C100. Awesome! I thought to myself, the FS100U does have similar low light performance and now has the miracle of the Metabones Speedboster turning it into a one stop faster near full frame camera using my EF lenses, plus I get 60p! Only things that turns me off is the lack of NDs and I'm worried about dynamic range, especially at higher higher ISOs.

How does the FS100U dynamic range perform at high ISOs? Does it drop much? One of the things I love about the C100 is how it clearly maintains good dynamic range at the high ISOs. I'd assume it's best to use the G-Log with the FS100U? Would this make it a closer low light match for the C100 in not just sensitivity, but dynamic range? Highlight handling of the FS100U worries me as well. The low light comparison I saw with the FS100U vs the C100 and 5D3 showed nasty highlights on the candles at high ISOs, but he C100 looked great. Does the G-log improve highlights at all?
 
i have not seen any change of dynamic range at high ISO, but 11 stops is pretty much it for the FS100, maybe 11.5 depends on how you read your spot meter at that point

I would test carefully any of the fauxlog profiles, in my tests they all harshly clip highlights.... i would not approach the camera assumeing that the Glog in particular is a good place to start, but it is worth looking at for yourself... it might be better suited to working with post software that clips full range levels.

Are you are using a post chain that maintains full range? then test useing the full range of the camera, for me it really puts the best foot foward; Nirv, PointCam, & Ferrari are among others worth testing for yourself.

I have graded one show shot on a C300 and it fell off a very hard cliff at low light, and into a sea of noise.. in places where i expect the FS100 would not even be breathing hard, again real world tests for yourself are the answer

I know some of the "tests' are run through software that clips levels, in that case the FS at full range would show clipping... this is a function of prosumer software trashing what the camera is capable of.
 
Last edited:
If you are buying a black magic you will need to be investing in some serious filtrationj for that, ND and possibly IR

In that case the FS100 comes to the fore

On a straight cam for cam battle Id take the C100 for ND over 60 personally

EDIT: I forgot the speedbooster which IMO is basically an EF mount killer - more points for the FS100!

S
 
Last edited:
I think right out of the box, the C100 has a nicer image than the FS100. If you spend a bit more the FS700 (due to Cinegammas) is more like the C100 in that the image out of the box requires a lot less tweaking in highlights, colors, etc... It just looks right and is easy. I'm sure with tweaking, you can get the FS100 to where you want.

Now I am going to go against what everyone has said, but personally, I think the ergonomics on the C100 and C300 are NOT good compared to the FS100 / FS700. Why? Because the FS cameras, the LCD, Loupe and audio are all built into 1 unit. The Loupe (when shortened) + LCD makes for a decent EVF, not as good as something like the Small HD DP4, but at least you don't have to rig another thing. Thus the FS cameras are great run and gun cameras when you have to work light and the FS100 EVF just flips up into an LCD.

I messed with the C100 at EVS video store in Glendale and the EVF on it SUCKS big time. It's super small and it does not tilt. Even the sales guy said that the C100 EVF is useless. Try using C100 LCD screen in bright sun and you are screwed, and the EVF is junk. On the C300, the LCD and audio are a separate unit that needs to be attached to the camera which makes it huge.

Personally, I love the FS cameras ergonomic just because everything is contained into 1 unit. Plus, the FS camera is a great rig-less, hand held camera if you use a shortened loupe and support the bottom with your right hand. Sure the buttons are kind of crazy, but that takes about 1 day to get used to it.

C100 has no slow motion and for me, slow motion is a huge part of my aesthetic so that's a big No No.

As for C100, FS100 or BMC? I would take the FS700 :) Great all around camera with a nice, easy image right out of the box on par with the C100. But between those 3, the choice is much harder. Image wise, obviously the BMC with it's RAW is pretty much the best you can do, but the ergonomics suck big time. C100 has a great image, but no slow motion and no decent EVF. FS100 takes more tinkering to get a good profile and no NDs.

I think for people who are really technically savvy (Nirv, Sam Morgan, Frank G.), the FS100 is fine because they are really good at tinkering with it. For people like me who are less technical, I just need something that looks good out of the box a bit more, so the C100 might fit that bill at bit better than the FS100.

I think you have to think about what you shoot as well. If you mainly shoot narrative, interviews or reality type stuff, 24fps is fine. But if you shoot music videos, artistic type pieces, sports and want some more slicked out B-Roll, having slow motion is huge.

And like Sam said. Speed Booster is insane
 
Last edited:
i agree with gene that the ergonomics on the FS100 isn't as bad as it's made out to be, ESPECIALLY if you shorten the loupe, which i consider a must. the fs100 is also very light and can use very small and light e-mount prime lenses, many of them stabilized and most of them cheap (except the zeiss 24mm).

the fs700, when i had it briefly, struck me as significantly bulkier and more unwieldy than the fs100. somehow it just didn't feel right. the fs100 with shortened loupe, on the other hand, really grew on me. not having built-in NDs was for me its achilles heel.
 
I actually think the FS100 is great for handheld shooting. Well as good as any handycam anyways, a shoulder
mount camera would be easier, but you can shoot the FS100 without rigging it up pretty easy.

I am interested in the shortened loupe. I think I saw a video showing a way to shorten it using Velcro.
Is that the solution you are talking about?
 
Another vote for the FS700, although I went C100 for its image and ergonomics. For what I do, for what I'm being booked for, the C100 is perfect. But the FS700 is pretty awesome. The FS100's highlight handling drove me nuts, and once I had the use of the FS700 I couldn't go back.

BMCC? A colleague has one and used it on a couple of jobs. It's not the sort of camera you could build a videography business around. It can do amazing things, but the ergonomics and the workflow's challenging. And it's really early days - I'm sitting the first round out.
 
Thanks for the replies everyone! The choice is definitely not an easy one. I'm now considering a Sony F35 as well or may just stick with the BMCC and wait for a Metabones speedbooster.
 
After 4 years with the 5D MKII and MKIII I'm considering switching to the FS100 myself. The main problem I have with the Canon DSLRs is the fixed pattern noise. I shoot a lot of low key scenes and there's too much noise in the shadows. I didn't want to touch the FS100 when it came out but thanks to the profile development from Frank and others the FS100 is really looking good now. I understand that the FS100 is cleaner in the shadows than the FS700, add the extra cost and weight and it's not an option for me.

I think a lot of BMCC buyers are going to be really disappointed, not because the camera isn't any good but because they don't have the skills to make it shine. The C100 produces a very nice image but 60p is essential for my work and I've heard it has some fixed pattern noise issues too. I think Sony will announce an FS100 successor at NAB so until then I'm going to pick up a D5200 or a GH3 to play around with.
 
squig said:
I think a lot of BMCC buyers are going to be really disappointed, not because the camera isn't any good but because they don't have the skills to make it shine.
Click to expand...

BlackMagic.....

I just got mine and feared Resolve and after 10 minutes was up to speed to get the LUT on it and out from RAW to Prores 444 in no time. I'm sold. The image is what I've been hunting and its so simple to shoot.

Shoot RAW, iso 800, expose to 100% zebras, quick trip to Resolve and out to FCPX.

You don't hear much about the BMC here because of the sister site (BMCUser). Its kind of weird having a site for one camera after being at DVXUser for so long, but its how it was in the beginning of this site
Screen-Shot-2013-02-09-at-8.23.03-PM.png
 
Last edited:
squig said:
I think a lot of BMCC buyers are going to be really disappointed, not because the camera isn't any good but because they don't have the skills to make it shine.
Click to expand...
You can shoot in prores and make it shine pretty easily.
 
squig said:
I think Sony will announce an FS100 successor at NAB so until then I'm going to pick up a D5200 or a GH3 to play around with.
Click to expand...
I think we're still 1 more year to go with that one. At the earliest in November imo.
 
squig said:
B&H has the FS100 on sale until March 31st, NAB starts the following week, coincidence? maybe.
Click to expand...

Wow Squig, you're thinking about switching from Canon? That says a lot as I was under the impression that you're one of the biggest Canon supporters there is. As for an FS100 successor? Seem like if Sony just put the Cinegammas in the FS100 it would extend the life quite a bit. That would be huge for the FS100. And just to keep it even, maybe up the codec in the FS700 a bit?

If the FS cameras just got a little profile and codec boost at NAB, it would keep them going for quite a bit longer.
 
squig said:
B&H has the FS100 on sale until March 31st, NAB starts the following week, coincidence? maybe.
Click to expand...
Maybe, maybe not. I really think it has to do with tax season here in the US. Lots of tax returns get filed and cashed so why not extend the offer to try to get the extra cash out there. I still think maybe November at the earliest which puts it at the 3yr mark. The FS100 is still a strong competitor at it's price point as gene_can_sing said. Update the PP and it's still got life. Next step will be 4K for it.
 
I dont really see what there is to be updated with the FS100

I bought it as a '7d that works' (XLR-moire cured)

The FS700 is the upgrade?

Anyway Im not really interested in another camera of that class.. an incremental upgrade is a bit pointless and an upgrade that brings the FS100 on par with the F5, well it ain't gonna happen!

S
 
gene_can_sing said:
Wow Squig, you're thinking about switching from Canon? That says a lot as I was under the impression that you're one of the biggest Canon supporters there is.
Click to expand...

Hehe, na never been a fanboy, I'm brand agnostic. I don't own any Canon glass just a MKII and a MKIII. I started with a D90 and would have kept it if Nikon updated it with manual control, I've shot with Sony and Panasonic too. I've always pointed out the pros and cons of the 5D to everyone. The 5Ds have served me well but I've pushed them to their limit and I need to go beyond their limit on this feature.

The speedbooster and great user colour profile development have made the FS100 a much more attractive option. I still don't like the ergonomics but it's the image that counts. 1080p 60p is a must and the FS100 also handles underexposure much better than the 5D and doesn't suffer from fixed pattern noise which is the main issue I have with the 5D. I'm always fighting for light with a full frame camera because I have to stop down so much and push the ISO to get deep enough DOF. An S35 sensor just makes more sense for narrative work, I guess you could say I've finally seen the light.
 
morgan_moore said:
I dont really see what there is to be updated with the FS100
Click to expand...

It's pretty good as is but a redesign of the body and controls more like a C300 and a high bit-rate codec would be nice. It's only because of the work you and Frank and others have put into it that has me even considering it now. A cine gammas firmware update would be great but I think at this point a replacement is more likely. I could be wrong but NAB isn't far away so I'd rather wait than find that my shiny new FS100 has been superseded a few weeks after I bought it.

The FS700 is an upgrade but it isn't a successor. Different pricepoint, heavier, 4k future, etc.
 
Sounds like Canon have a C50 or C200 up their sleeve too, stores are discounting the C100 in Europe and Canada. Looks like there may be a couple of new cameras around the $5000 price point yay. My guess is Canon will drop the C100 price to match the new Sony FS200? and release a C200 at the FS700 price point.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top