EVA1: C100 Mark II vs. Sony FS5 or Canon C200 or Panasonic AU-EVA1

G

guerriglia

Active member
Hi.
I am about to sell my old C100 Mark II. I would like to buy a new camera, but I found myself bogged down in a world of doubts.
What would you buy:
Sony FS5 with 4K free upgrade and Canon adapter for 4900 euros.
Canon C200 for 7100 euros.
Panasonic AU-EVA1 for 6800 euros.
(Prices are approximate and without VAT)
Consider that "spending other people's money is always fun" so please be considerate when you reply ;-)
Thanks!
 
i‘d wait for the first independent reviews of the eva before making a decision. maybe even for the firmware updates of the pana and the canon, and maybe by then sony will also have anounced a fs5 mark ii, or canon will have made a price drop. each camera got some unique features, so it depends on your usage. imho, the general specs are all in the same ballpark

on paper I‘d go for the sony, because it‘s the lightest and cheapest and got that versatile e-mount. then i‘d take the canon because of the dualpixel-af, internal raw and nice configureable buttons and menus. plus, i like canon‘s colors.

both also probably work better in a production environment, because lots of people use fs7 or c300s. both also got a viewfinder.

as a panasonic user since the dvx100 i‘d very much like to buy the eva, but from a rational, business-perspective, the other two look like the more sensible choice to me. again, real world-usage will be different from specs on paper. nobody would buy a c300 mark I over the fs7 based on specs alone, but that‘s exactly what happened with most small production houses where i live.

advantages of the pana would be for me: dual iso and the sharpest picture (both for what it‘s worth), neutral panasonic colors, internal 10 bit 422 in 4k25 and the removeable ir-filter.
 
Guerriglia, what kind of stuff do you usually shoot? As Unami said they all have their unique features and it's probably best to wait until the EVA-1 is available for testing.

Sony FS5:
Low price, E-mount (you can get the Fujinon MK-zooms which are much more affordable than other cine zooms), 4K bursts in 100/120 fps (with external recorder), variable ND.

Canon C200:
Great autofocus, internal raw (light, but probably expensive memory cards) and Canon colour science (if you like that).

Panasonic EVA-1:
Dual ISO (although I don't know how good it is on the EVA-1, on the Varicam LT it's great but they are different), great internal codec, Varicam colours (if you like that) and internal image stabilization (although I don't know how good it is).
 
How much do you need a viewfinder? How often do you shoot with a crew or on your own? For me, the EVA-1 would be off my list as it does not have a viewfinder. I know you can get 3rd party viewfinders but that is that same as external recorders... Sort of see this as being lazy on Panasonic's part. At this price point one man band shooters are the target users and a good viewfinder you can trust is invaluable. Or essential in my view.

You have your choices, so I think the next step is to talk with a local rental house that might carry these cameras and ask if you can make an appointment and try them out in house. Record some footage, bring it home and make your decision.
 
guerriglia said:
Hi.
I am about to sell my old C100 Mark II. I would like to buy a new camera, but I found myself bogged down in a world of doubts.
What would you buy:
Sony FS5 with 4K free upgrade and Canon adapter for 4900 euros.
Canon C200 for 7100 euros.
Panasonic AU-EVA1 for 6800 euros.
(Prices are approximate and without VAT)
Consider that "spending other people's money is always fun" so please be considerate when you reply ;-)
Thanks!
Click to expand...
I'm in the same situation, I need to buy a new camera, but after excluded C200 for the weight and FS7 (weight too), there's only EVA1 that fits my needs. I'm waiting till November if Sony makes a FS5 Mark II would be good, but I think that it will be presented next NAB 2018 because the camera is 2 years old, Sony will sell the new model probably when it will be almost 3 years old.
 
Since my wife says I am so good an being pessimistic ;-) here are some reality checks for you, based upon my experience and other DVXers experience...

1. Sony FS5 - older design and technology, nice specs, horrible Sony color science, IMHO, can only look good shooting Cine Gamut S-Log 3 with grading. I've never seen a baked in look from an FS5 or FS7 that had good skin tones where the subjects didn't look as if they were on a morgue slab. I've seen some beautiful stuff from both but always shot with S-Log 3 and had some heavy duty grading. Then again, some people like Sony color??? As far as features, price/rebates. Also Sony E-mount has some tasty lens choices. If it matters to you, the AF on this camera is sub-par. If you make films and have an AC, doesn't matter. If you shoot events or one man band, matters a lot, 4K is more challenging to nail focus on than 1080 on your old camera.

2. Canon C200 - Nice, new design and technology, Cinema RAW Light is impressive if you can afford the CFast 2.0 cards, and workflow. If you shoot short form, narrative, music videos, promos, commercials, it's do-able. If you shoot 2-5 hours of footage in a shooting day event or documentary work, forget it. The internal .MP4 looks and behaves great but you have to nail your WB and exposure, if you don't, not a lot of latitude to fix it without the image degrading. Touch screen AF is not a usable as you would think, since when you touch the screen at medium to long focal lengths, you see the tapping on the screen in your images. But DPAF, in general is amazing, it will nail focus for you, assuring you sharp, clear 4K images in most (but not all) situations. Canon color science, in most users opinions, is superior to Sony. The camera shipped with a few operational issues that Canon will hopefully fix, not deal breakers, just irritating little things you have to watch out for. Canon EF lens choices are HUGE. Overall a good camera but not without flaws.

3. Panasonic AU EVA 1 - Probably the smallest and lightest of the three. The 150Mbps shipping codec, to me, is just okay but when the 400 Mbps codec is in force, it should be more impressive. Dual ISO seems like a cool thing but users are split about how it will actually look as we have only seen handicapped (with the 150Mbps codec) from engineering models, not the finished product. Images, based upon what I saw projected, can look pretty filmic but can also veer toward digital/video looking, I think you need a very good eye and need lighting skills to make this camera sing and not look too video-like but once again, take that with a grain of salt as we have not seen images from the shipping models. Lack of an EVF results in a $2k bump in cost if you need an EVF in your work. I can't imagine owning a camera without an EVF but evidently some can. So here in the US, we are closer to $10k for the AU EVA 1 and a Zacuto EVF and something to rig it with, although you may be able to get by with just a much cheaper Zacuto loupe on the LCD? From what I experienced, the LCD arm feels a little fragile, like the LCD arm on the C200 as a matter of fact but I only saw the roadshow models that have probably been used and abused so I would reserve judgement until there are shipping models. Panasonic Varicam-like color science is generally beautiful, I love it more than the my own C200's color science so far. The AF in the camera doesn't promise to be anything special or particularly amazing and the effectiveness of the EIS is still to be revealed, the models shown so far have not had VFR or the EIS activated. Lot of questions about this camera that won't be revealed until they ship.
 
puredrifting said:
and the effectiveness of the EIS is still to be revealed, the models shown so far have not had VFR or the EIS activated. Lot of questions about this camera that won't be revealed until they ship.
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I've talked with a guy that has EVA1, he says that despite the image stabilization of the lenses doesn't work, the built in E.I.S, on the sensor makes a pretty good job to stabilize the shoots.
 
Danilo Del Tufo said:
I've talked with a guy that has EVA1, he says that despite the image stabilization of the lenses doesn't work, the built in E.I.S, on the sensor makes a pretty good job to stabilize the shoots.
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He can't have a production model yet though, it must still be an engineering model. Interesting, the units that the three films were shot with, the EIS was not enabled yet, nor was VFR.
 
puredrifting said:
He can't have a production model yet though, it must still be an engineering model. Interesting, the units that the three films were shot with, the EIS was not enabled yet, nor was VFR.
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I dunno what model he has, but the actually the SD cards are blocked so he can't record anything and He's waiting for a new firmware.
 
We'll see. To me the EVA-1 footage looks more like a super high-end video camera, more so than a low-end cinema camera. Just to my eye, based on very little demo footage.

Seems Panasonic needed a distinguishing factor and 5.7K seems to have been it. It may be part of what gives the image such a highly detailed/sharp look that is less organic than BMC, Varicam, or even FS7... but... that's sort of too early to tell. To achieve the same DR and lowlight capabilities as competitors, with more pixels @ S35 sensor size (read = smaller pixels/photosites) the digital processing is definitely doing some magic. Beyond a few short and limited clips from pre-production models (now reportedly 4 firmware revisions old), to determine how exactly the smaller photosites affect the final image characteristics native to the EVA-1 we will need more (new) footage in more (various) hands to determine... but, until then, I am lukewarm on early footage.

If more demo footage changes that perception, or proves the camera is capable of a less digital look, everything else looks great (color, DR, highlights, size/weight, feature set, etc.). Only benefit I would see of the FS5 is the electronic VND at that point.
 
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I wouldn't expect a firmware to improve upon the look.

This Varicam demo should have set the example to how to do an Eva 1 demo. Then we would be in awe!

 
As a Sony shooter for many many years and currently owner of FS700+Inferno combo and a7s. I was logically looking for FS5 but after renting it for a gig I am sure that I am not going to buy it even though someone could call me "sony fanboy". I don't like colors, EVF sucks, LCD is basically useless during a day. The Specs are great an with raw upgrade you can get great images but pretty much the same as my current combo.

C200 looks great to me, love color science, finally useful EVF, but I have found that EF is limiting. I would miss E mount flexibility. Yeah, sounds weird but I am using EF lenses with Speedboster all the time. I would not be able to find replacement for my main fullframe glass - tamron 15-30/2.8, canon 24-105/4 both with IS. People are crying that E mount does not have APSC lenses but canon doest not have as well. They have awesome fullframe lenses but they are not working for my style of shooting without fullframe sensor. One more thing about DPAF. C200 users on this forum claim that AF is way way better with STM lenses but there are not much of them and they are mostly slow.

For EVA is to soon, I would wait for more user test and I would rent it from local rental.
 
puredrifting said:
Lack of an EVF results in a $2k bump in cost if you need an EVF in your work. I can't imagine owning a camera without an EVF but evidently some can.
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I think the lack of EVF although mentioned very little is a big deal. I believe I heard from a Panasonic rep at Cinegear 2017 that their research indicated that users don't deem them (EVF's), necessary with this type of camera. Kinda wondered if their research included anyone over 40 or who wears glasses. :) I agree that a subpar EVF is not really usable therefore not necessary. But a good one is invaluable. I'm totally aware that some cameras come without an EVF... but still, the Varicam LT has a Panasonic viewfinder option. So perhaps not unlike the EF mount lenses, Panasonic is relying on the 3rd party in this critical area as well.
 
William said:
I think the lack of EVF although mentioned very little is a big deal. I believe I heard from a Panasonic rep at Cinegear 2017 that their research indicated that users don't deem them (EVF's), necessary with this type of camera. Kinda wondered if their research included anyone over 40 or who wears glasses. :) I agree that a subpar EVF is not really usable therefore not necessary. But a good one is invaluable. I'm totally aware that some cameras come without an EVF... but still, the Varicam LT has a Panasonic viewfinder option. So perhaps not unlike the EF mount lenses, Panasonic is relying on the 3rd party in this critical area as well.
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Whenever I hear the argument against having an EVF built in, it always assumes that people don't use them, that people don't because they're typically not great, and that there are only two choices someone can make when designing a camera:

1- Crappy EVF
2- No EVF

I'd say the answer is to make a very good built-in EVF. When I had an URSA Mini 4.6k (good EVF), I used the EVF all the time; and the very first time I took my C200 (also a good EVF) out it was nigh noon on a Saturday and the screen was useless in direct sunlight. I was pretty thankful to have an EVF...
 
J.Brown said:
I wouldn't expect a firmware to improve upon the look.

This Varicam demo should have set the example to how to do an Eva 1 demo. Then we would be in awe!

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I had never seen this. Best footage I have seen from the Varicam by far. Interesting this is not even an official demo? It should have been. The official Varicam 35 and LT demos were filled with video looking shots. Worst offenders that come to mind are the boxing shots and the girl writing in the wooden room. Reminded me of my DVCPRO days. I thought those demos mostly looked like video. This looks much better. Might be the orange and teal grading tricking me to think I'm watching Hollywood. But at least I like the image which I didn't in the official demos. Panasonic should have this on their official channel.

I agree this should be an example of how to do a good eva1 demo. But if doing something like this the acting has to hold. Here it was the weak link.
 
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With that king of grade it could have been shot on any log enabled camera with the same lighting and lenses the results would be identical be it an f55, c300II, Amira or Red.


Sttratos said:
I had never seen this. Best footage I have seen from the Varicam by far. Interesting this is not even an official demo? It should have been. The official Varicam 35 and LT demos were filled with video looking shots. Worst offenders that come to mind are the boxing shots and the girl writing in the wooden room. Reminded me of my DVCPRO days. I thought those demos mostly looked like video. This looks much better. Might be the orange and teal grading tricking me to think I'm watching Hollywood. But at least I like the image which I didn't in the official demos. Panasonic should have this on their official channel.

I agree this should be an example of how to do a good eva1 demo. But if doing something like this the acting has to hold. Here it was the weak link.
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