Buying advice: pre-amp or pistol?

[Alex H.]

I'm a bit confused about the comment above about the pre-amps on the Lexicons - I can't really hear very much of a difference between my Omega and my Soundcraft pre-amps, or the ones in my Yamaha mixer - in fact, out of these, the Soundcraft is quietest at high gains, the Lexicon coming second and the yamaha worst - however, the Yamaha is fine at sensible gain settings.

It was based on my personal experience and has to do with noise when the pre-amps are pushed past 50% and 75%. I've just gotten results that weren't great with the Lexicon. Doesn't mean it can't be useful... if you have a mic with a hotter output and you don't need to push the pre-amp as hard, you'll be fine.

 

[olindacat]

Sound advice. I have hired pros for over 25 years. But not for this and not for audio specifically. It's good to see you supporting the industry, as you should, and the advice is spot-on, if (and I say this from exp) I can find someone who will be sincere about helping. 99% of the time, I have had guys who resent me for trying to 'steal' their hard-earned knowledge. I actually feel for them, and therein lies the paradox.

This is my suggestion, if nothing else, get someone in at least once to get it done right the first time and show you the basics. It'll be cheaper than throwing all kinds of money at gear you don't really know how to use. A director on a low budget feature hired me a few years ago to show him how to run his audio gear since he was basically doing a 3 man crew for the whole thing. Just a few hours of my time (and payment) saved him thousands in post production (which I did the sound editing on).

 

[olindacat]

Amazing. I was at B&H for hours with two pro audio 'engineers' who insisted I buy Mogami. I'm returning them today. Thank you.

I've got 200+ XLR-XLR cables of different types. Some are Canare, some totally unbranded, and some my favourite types. All kinds of lengths and connector brands.

NONE sound any different. My choice is 100% made by what I'm about to do. I make my own cables from the UK firm Canford Audio's HST cable. It's easy to solder connectors onto, coils nicely and is tough and reliable. Some cables are stiffer, and when laid on the floor, curl up and don't lay flat. Others, of the years start to turn into a series of curls, and will never straighten. Some have a foil screen and a drain wire, rather than a braided screen, and eventually, the constant coiling and uncoiling fractures the screen - making them more susceptible to RF interference. Others have simply wrapped screens, which can gradually become, like the foil, to be less effective. Most have man-made jacket material, others have real rubber. Then we move on to connectors. Here in Europe we usually see Neutrik as the standard, although a few Switchcraft ones, or even original Canon types are around. Cheap cables have inferior connectors, often styled like Switchcraft or Neutrik. Some melt when you apply the soldering iron. Some have good cable clamps, some are hopeless.

These are the only considerations I worry about. If I am looking for a 6m cable, then when going through the cable trunk, I discard thin, stiff and weak connectors, leaving nice to use - but perhaps very grubby - others. I have many colours of cables, so I usually pick one that will look the best for the use. Grey if the floor is grey, black if it's black etc. However, if I'm adding one cable to somebody else's spaghetti mess, I'll usually use a different colour so on the de-rig, I can find the right one more easily.

If you like Canare that's fine - keep buying more, but the pro-audio world never consider cables from a sonic point of view, even the nasty, hard plastic, cheap connector version will sound just as good - stay away from audiophile hyperbole!

I'm a bit confused about the comment above about the pre-amps on the Lexicons - I can't really hear very much of a difference between my Omega and my Soundcraft pre-amps, or the ones in my Yamaha mixer - in fact, out of these, the Soundcraft is quietest at high gains, the Lexicon coming second and the yamaha worst - however, the Yamaha is fine at sensible gain settings. I'm afraid I'm personally not a proponent of ultra-fidelty preamps - the cost (for me) outweighs the small differences. I find that these devices are only really necessary if you have very good quality microphones in a proper recording environment, as the extended dynamic range and lower self-noise can be masked by room or location sound noise floor.

 

[olindacat]

Okay, so I tested the Neumann 103 at B & H (before I bought it) and think it is a great mic and a good buy. No, it may not be the best for my dad, but then again, my feeling is that there are millions of mics that are not only task-specific, but also useable for the same job. My wife does a part of our golf show called "Coconut Wireless." The 103 may be perfect for her. My dad, at 85, has a thinner, more frail voice than he used to. I wanted the sensitivity to try out for him. As I paid $650 for the 103, and will use it for other uses down the line, I consider it a good compromise to the 87, which is simply beyond my reach.

But the main purpose of this thread was concerning a preamp and an interface, or both. I appreciate the advice I have gotten here. Really. But was still stumped when I pulled the trigger the other day and got the Avid Mbox Pro with Pro Tools 9 (upgradable to 10) and a Sound Devices MixPre-D. My intent was to run the SD pres in front of the MBox, bypassing Avid's pres but using its converter, which I was told was better. Also, as I needed a DAW program anyway, the package seemed like a good deal. Further, my added goal was to test the Mix-Pre as an on-camera solution, to compare the audio quality recorded via the interface to my iMac versus the MixPre-D straight into the camera.

I also picked up a Shure SM7B mic. I actually think this mic will work well for the old guy and also help with the environment, as he can molest it and thus overshadow the ambient room noise (in theory).

So, how did it all go? Well, not too well. It took me a full day to learn I could not get ProTools installed and RUNNING on my 2011 iMac i7 with two 240GB Vertex RAID 0 SSDs flying at the speed of light. Why? Because of their rightful and sincere desire to stop piracy. In fact, it is so good, that even I, a proud owner, could not fool them. In short, the 'opportunity cost' of owning ProTools was in question. After several calls and hours on the phone with a really nice guy at Pro Tools, it was concluded that the conversation would need to run into the next day, and that he would text me his cell so we could finish getting my iLock straightened out. He never followed up.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I decided to just try the MicPre-D/Shure SM7B/MBox/iMac combo with Garage Band, just to 'hear' its greatness. But, the cables I bought, at the stern and sure advice of my two B&H 'sound engineers' were male-to-female, and I needed male-to-male in order to connect the MBox (my interface) to my Genelec 1029a NF monitors. Thus, the experiment was to be partly moot, with only Sony headphones and the iMac's internal speakers to run the test.

But there were other concerns: what setting should the MBox dial be on, or is it inactive as the audio is line-in from the MixPre-D? Well, it sure sounded like it was working when I turned the dial.

Between the software hassle, the terrible operations manual, the cables, and the loss of time... the MBox is back in its box and will be returned. Yes, I know many here will say I'm a lightweight. Perhaps I am. But I decided to cut my outlay in half and will go with either the baby Mbox/PT combo, or some other interface and a DAW program that I can actually use (I have CS6 anyway).

So, my next mission was to record stright into the camera, in this case a Nikon D7000, via the SD MixPre-D. My first test had the most horrid shrieking/interference sound at about equal to the level of the talent, if not louder. I never heard this sound while the recording was happening, as I was monitoring with headphones. Thus, the MixPre-D and the D7000 were not playing nice-nice.

We spent threee more hours trying to figure out what to do. I turned the mic 'off' in the D7000's movie settings, thinking there might be some kind of pre-amp conflict. I Googled and watched YouTube for hours, read posts here and everywhere, but nothing, I mean nothing, seemed to help me figure out exactly how to get the two devices to work together.

So, here I am, on a Sunday morning, asking: does anyone, anyone at all, know how to get the Sound Devices MixPre-D and the Nikon D7000 to work together, properly? I have the Shure set to 'Mic' going into mic-in 1, set to "C". (I have also tried left "L"). I have a very expensive SD cable for the mic out connected to the DSLR. I have SD set to line out on the side panel where the line out XLR jacks are, under channel "1". I have tried the D7000 movie Mic settings switched to Auto, 1, 2, 3, and off. I have disconnected the MixPre and listed to the 'live view' and 'rec' audio in-camera alone, via the a/v out jack, with both monitors and headphones, and there-in lies the issue! But what to do? Anyone?

 

[Steve House]

Amazing. I was at B&H for hours with two pro audio 'engineers' who insisted I buy Mogami. I'm returning them today. Thank you.

Mogami, Canare, etc won't sound any better than any other cables but they will hold up better under use than the cheap stuff.. OTOH, Monster and other high-priced "audiophile" cables neither sound better or hold up better than the mainstream cables - total waste of money to pay their premium prices.

 

[Steve House]

...

But the main purpose of this thread was concerning a preamp and an interface, or both. I appreciate the advice I have gotten here. Really. But was still stumped when I pulled the trigger the other day and got the Avid Mbox Pro with Pro Tools 9 (upgradable to 10) and a Sound Devices MixPre-D. My intent was to run the SD pres in front of the MBox, bypassing Avid's pres but using its converter, which I was told was better. Also, as I needed a DAW program anyway, the package seemed like a good deal. Further, my added goal was to test the Mix-Pre as an on-camera solution, to compare the audio quality recorded via the interface to my iMac versus the MixPre-D straight into the camera.

I also picked up a Shure SM7B mic. I actually think this mic will work well for the old guy and also help with the environment, as he can molest it and thus overshadow the ambient room noise (in theory).

So, how did it all go? Well, not too well. It took me a full day to learn I could not get ProTools installed and RUNNING on my 2011 iMac i7 with two 240GB Vertex RAID 0 SSDs flying at the speed of light. Why? Because of their rightful and sincere desire to stop piracy. In fact, it is so good, that even I, a proud owner, could not fool them. In short, the 'opportunity cost' of owning ProTools was in question. After several calls and hours on the phone with a really nice guy at Pro Tools, it was concluded that the conversation would need to run into the next day, and that he would text me his cell so we could finish getting my iLock straightened out. He never followed up.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I decided to just try the MicPre-D/Shure SM7B/MBox/iMac combo with Garage Band, just to 'hear' its greatness. But, the cables I bought, at the stern and sure advice of my two B&H 'sound engineers' were male-to-female, and I needed male-to-male in order to connect the MBox (my interface) to my Genelec 1029a NF monitors. Thus, the experiment was to be partly moot, with only Sony headphones and the iMac's internal speakers to run the test.

But there were other concerns: what setting should the MBox dial be on, or is it inactive as the audio is line-in from the MixPre-D? Well, it sure sounded like it was working when I turned the dial.

Between the software hassle, the terrible operations manual, the cables, and the loss of time... the MBox is back in its box and will be returned. Yes, I know many here will say I'm a lightweight. Perhaps I am. But I decided to cut my outlay in half and will go with either the baby Mbox/PT combo, or some other interface and a DAW program that I can actually use (I have CS6 anyway).

So, my next mission was to record stright into the camera, in this case a Nikon D7000, via the SD MixPre-D. My first test had the most horrid shrieking/interference sound at about equal to the level of the talent, if not louder. I never heard this sound while the recording was happening, as I was monitoring with headphones. Thus, the MixPre-D and the D7000 were not playing nice-nice.

We spent threee more hours trying to figure out what to do. I turned the mic 'off' in the D7000's movie settings, thinking there might be some kind of pre-amp conflict. I Googled and watched YouTube for hours, read posts here and everywhere, but nothing, I mean nothing, seemed to help me figure out exactly how to get the two devices to work together.

So, here I am, on a Sunday morning, asking: does anyone, anyone at all, know how to get the Sound Devices MixPre-D and the Nikon D7000 to work together, properly? I have the Shure set to 'Mic' going into mic-in 1, set to "C". (I have also tried left "L"). I have a very expensive SD cable for the mic out connected to the DSLR. I have SD set to line out on the side panel where the line out XLR jacks are, under channel "1". I have tried the D7000 movie Mic settings switched to Auto, 1, 2, 3, and off. I have disconnected the MixPre and listed to the 'live view' and 'rec' audio in-camera alone, via the a/v out jack, with both monitors and headphones, and there-in lies the issue! But what to do? Anyone?

The line out on the mBox is not XLR, it is 1/4" TRS. The line input on your Genelec monitors is XLR-F. So to connect them you don't need either a male-to-female XLR cable nor a male-to-male XLR cable. You need a cable with a 1/4" TRS male on one end and an XLR male on the other, wired straight through for balanced TRS to balanced XLR.

If you want to send the XLR output of the MixPre to your mBox, you have two options. Plug an XLR female into the MixPre XLR outs, XLR male into the cBox XLR inputs and set the MixPre to mic level output, OR plug XLR female into the MixPre, 1/4 TR$ male into the mBox combi connector and set the MixPre output level to line. Note that for recording the MixPre IS an audio interface and you don't need the mBox at all. Connect the MixPre to the computer through its USB port - the same program as the XLR outputs is digitiszed by the MixPre and goes to the left and right channels of your recording software while the computers audio output is routed tothe headphone jack on the MixPre. RTFM The only thing is it doesn't have line outs that will feed the computer output to your Genelecs.

If you want to send the MixPre's output to a D7000, be sure to send the camera mic level. The 3 pin connector labelled "ST UNBAL MIC OUT" is a hot mic level sending a nominal -36dB to the camera. AFAIK, the switch settings for the XLR output level doesn't affect this connector's level. You'll need to adjust the cameras mic sensitivity accordingly in its menu.

 

[paulears]

A friend of mine a few years ago was a retired wireman who spent most of his working life in the BBC installing, repairing and modifying the rack to rack wiring infrastructure. Where he would start with an empty rack frame, a pile of patchbays and leave a few days later having made thousands of joints and dressed cables with a zero error rate. The BBC system was quite simple - produce a spec for a cable which not only detailed the screen and core type and size, but other details such as the physical size and construction. Once given a type, they would source it from a number of sources, but frequently for simplicity and availability they used canford audio, who often sourced/produced cables to the BBC spec. Only rarely were these branded with the 'special' makes. The well known pro cable brands re not immune to producing dodgy types - my beef being muticore cables that start to curl badly as the outside ages and shrinks. Mogami and Canare are trusted brands, but here in the UK, I've tended to stick to types given the BBC codings - something my wireman friend thought very important. His moan was that sometimes when making up posh cables for friends, the expensive types were either difficult to strip, or delicate to solder - with inner conductors far too prone to overheating and worse still, cable braids made from larger numbers of smaller wires that could easily be missed and short out. To him, the construction was more important than make, and consistency between batches even more so. He used to laugh when the audiophiles banged on about the sonic side of things - always saying that if audio quality really was different, then the studios would have used it straight away. Hundreds of meters of quite ordinary cabling between the central apparatus rooms being 'improved' by a few feet of cable in the home!

I think his opinion rubbed off on me. I've still got a few cables I soldered in my bedroom when a teenager, nearly 40 years ago. I used one this very week as the left channel cable along side a brand new one - did it make a difference? Nah!

I've broken cheap ones running flightcases over them, I have had a couple snap when they got very cold and the plastic hardened, and I've had a few that seemed to have corroded half way along, but by far the most common fault is cable clamps. The Neutrik collar type seem really good, but the old Switchcraft types never seemed very good at keeping the strain off the inner conductors, and these for me fail the most. Over the past few years I have also discovered IDC versions of the Neutriks - which I expected to be unreliable. Quite the opposite - they're all going fine and have had plenty of abuse. You must use the recommended cable, but you tease the screen braid into one twist, then insert the two conductors and the teased screen into the holes and as you screw on the collar, the IDC spikes puncture the cable, make the connection and work! No solder, no cable prep bar cutting to length and trimming back the outer. Brilliant things!

 

[Noiz2]

Okay, so I tested the Neumann 103 at B & H (before I bought it) and think it is a great mic and a good buy. No, it may not be the best for my dad, but th
...

So, how did it all go? Well, not too well.
...

Meanwhile, back at the ranch,
..

But there were other concerns: what setting should the MBox dial be on, or is it inactive as the audio is line-in from the MixPre-D? Well, it sure sounded like it was working when I turned the dial.

Between the software hassle, the terrible operations manual, the cables, and the loss of time...
...

Thus, the MixPre-D and the D7000 were not playing nice-nice.

We spent threee more hours trying to figure out what to do.
...

So, here I am, on a Sunday morning, asking: does anyone, anyone at all, know how to
...
But what to do? Anyone?

And people don't want to hire a sound person because it's all so easy...

Don't mean to pick on you but reading your post I just kept thinking all you needed was a sound person to talk to. Salesmen are not "sound people". They may or may not know anything about what they are talking about, but they will sound like they do.

Maybe I missed some advice that was given but I would never recommend ProTools for production recording. I like it and use it every day, but I don't use it for production work. And the learning curve is kind of steep so it's not something I would recommend to anybody not wanting to do sound post for a living.

But the biggest thing that struck me was that you really proved the fallacy of todays marketing. It's not the boxes. You obviously dropped some serious change on a bunch of stuff you knew way to little about and got in way over your head. Apple, Digi, et all has been pushing this myth for years that if you own "our box/ software" you will instantly become a "pro".

I hope you get it worked out. It's not that you are stupid or anything, I recognize many of your issues because I dealt with similar ones at some point. Part of what you are paying a real pro for is all the mistakes they learned from. We used to have a poster "we've made the mistakes, so you don't have to". So it all feels frustrating right now but the silver lining is you just bought your self some "audio schooling".

I don't think it's going to get worked out with posts on this list. I strongly recommend you get a new local friend who knows something about production and post sound. A half hour of assessing what y have and what you want to do and a trip to a store and you would probably have been up and running. iLok issues can take longer but the issue is almost certainly with your system and the drivers from iLok and not a Digi issue. So that depends on a bunch of things like are there drivers for your version of the OS? One reason I don't recommend ProTools to casual users is you basically have to isolate that computer and NEVER update the OS till you have confirmation that all the parts of ProTools will work with the update. It general means you need to stay a year or so behind the current OS. It also means buying the OS updater six months to a year before you can install it. Not a casual user kind of thing.

 

[olindacat]

With very few exceptions, 90% of what I buy I try and return or resell. I try to buy good stuff so it is easier to unload. I'm sure the Neumann, if I don't like it, will find a good home. I invest in learning and totally agree that paying a pro is a good idea, but not always the best way to learn. Most of what I know in life is self-taught. I suppose the mistakes the pros have made and what I hope to learn one day. Not because I would ever envision myself as being capable of being a pro, but so I could be as good as I can be.

Sure, I am going in a lot of directions, and it is time-consuming. But trial and error and the best ways to learn.

Thanks to you all for your time and energy. I'm fine with the Mix-Pre D. I'll figure out some way to do 'production' some way, somehow. Cheers.

 

[olindacat]

Just in case anybody thought I was joshing: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-help-get-small-time-mom-amp-pop-team-rolling

 

[ggrantly]

Maybe I missed something along the way....

The MixPreD "IS" a digital interface. The MixPreD can record directly to cpu via usb, so why bother with the M-box? The only real drawback on the MixPreD is that to use it for monitors, you need to use the headphone jack so and expansion card output might be better. Also not sure why anyone would bother with Pro-Tools for simple dialogue short of a major feature, it seems like overkill to me, and ProTools and the Mac haven't always been a match made in heaven (are newer versions better?). Is it just me or is the op making this way more complicated than need be; Pick a mic you like, get a decent cable (not MONSTER), plug it into the cam or a recorder (maybe add a mixer) and get to it.

Grant

 

[olindacat]

Hey Grant

Hey Grant

I am doing exactly what you suggest: running a mic via Mix-Pre D to the cam and to iMac for VOs. I returned the MBox and ProTools to BH Photo.

Maybe I missed something along the way....

The MixPreD "IS" a digital interface. The MixPreD can record directly to cpu via usb, so why bother with the M-box? The only real drawback on the MixPreD is that to use it for monitors, you need to use the headphone jack so and expansion card output might be better. Also not sure why anyone would bother with Pro-Tools for simple dialogue short of a major feature, it seems like overkill to me, and ProTools and the Mac haven't always been a match made in heaven (are newer versions better?). Is it just me or is the op making this way more complicated than need be; Pick a mic you like, get a decent cable (not MONSTER), plug it into the cam or a recorder (maybe add a mixer) and get to it.

Grant

 

[Alex H.]

Posts have been deleted. Please stay on topic and don't let this get personal again.