Buying a used F3 vs a new (or even used) FS700?

S

SGCman

Member
Should I buy the F3 used for around $5-$6k or buy the FS700 for $8k (or maybe 6-7k used)?

This is more of a money question, though feel free to chime on on the technical side of things too.
After all is said and done, assuming I have no other equipment and I was just getting the base of each camera with no accessories, how much would it cost me to have a fully operational F3 vs FS700?

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to answer.
 
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The 700 really only IMO becomes a contender when usedc with the odyssey 7q recorder producing a 10 bit file to a "popular" codec.

that is or is not very close right now

To me 10bit colour is important - more important that fast frame rates.

but your needs may differ so it is a close call.

i have an f3 and only think it was the right choice of the two 51% of the time..
 
morgan_moore said:
i have an f3 and only think it was the right choice of the two 51% of the time..
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Appreciate the honest answer. For the money, which is going to cost me less to use? It seems the F3, which is the main reason I'm drawn to it. I think I could get it all set-up for less than an FS700, but am I right in assuming that? There are lot of things I'd have to buy still.
 
Everyone has different uses so there is not a right answer.

Shooting S35 (big chip)

Firstly it is my opinion that ANY s35 camera one must use an external monitor to aquire focus and one will need a rig to induce any usable form factor (off sticks)

So both cameras will need a monitor, batteries, mics, media, a rig

I think the cost of these will be equal.

Sticking on some glass.

Emount (FS700) is a consumer lens mount with many lens adapters and the hugely useful speedbooster avaialble.

FZ lens mount adapters are far more expensive. (F3)

Recording a great file.

Neither camera has a strong onboard codec, the FS700 being particularly weak.

To get the best image from the camera(s) you will need an external recorder.

The F3 outputs proper 10bit SDi and works with a multitude of $1k or less recording solutions

The Fs700 will only really work with the ($3k?) Odysey7q recorder, the options from this are very interesting but due to the early point in the life of that recorder its possibilities and actual on set use are somewhat unknown.

I would say a 700 with an O7q will outdo the F3, but that relies on the 7q not being vapourware which it currently is.

Incidentally the 7q will offer 60p to the F3 which is the same FPS offered on the 700 before the 700 degrades the file by line skipping.

To some extent the 7q will/may/should very much equalise the cameras, the FS700 is very weak without it.

Mass

Do not underestimate the influence of mass in your ability to move your camera to get it to where you need it to be to make shots. My big downer on the F3 is the mass is large. Here the 700 is by far the winner.

S

(btw I own F3,and FS100 and have shot professionally on the 700)
 
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I would strongly consider the FS700 with Odyssey over the F3.

You get high speed frame rates if you need it, 4k, 12-bit RAW, and the FS700 is a bit smaller. Either one will require external bits so in that sense they are a bit equal. I owned the F3 for 2 years and it does make great images but it can also take a long time to learn to manage slog if you will be grading yourself. Shooting RAW will eliminate a lot of the issues related to shooting and working with slog in post.

Also the FS700 shares the same sensor as found in the F5 right? (not 100% sure about that)

Regardless, good luck with your decision.
 
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starcentral said:
I would strongly consider the FS700 with Odyssey over the F3.

You get high speed frame rates if you need it, 4k, 12-bit RAW, and the FS700 is a bit smaller. Either one will require external bits so in that sense they are a bit equal. I owned the F3 for 2 years and it does make great images but it can also take a long time to learn to manage slog if you will be grading yourself. Shooting RAW will eliminate a lot of the issues related to shooting and working with slog in post.

Also the FS700 shares the same sensor as found in the F5 right? (not 100% sure about that)

Regardless, good luck with your decision.
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Yep you have the headlines right but to me the choice is not so obvious.

F3+Shuttle is much cheaper

Raw is cool with the 700/07q but has data load issues

For 1080 delivery the native F3 1080 chip is possibly cleaner from scaling artifacts and maybe better in low light than 4k sensors (even vs the F5!)

10bit compressed from the 700/07q is good on paper but not available (and is currently, hmmm, well, late - who knows what secret battles Convergent have with the popular codec people and or sony)

If the 7q delivers then we get 60p from the F3 and the 700 will only go faster than 60 when line skipped

All log will need upwrapping but one feels that convergent will have LUTs and post Luts more sorted than sonyF3log which is a little mystical!

S
 
I don't have an F3 nor have I used one but in every area except lenses the F3 is a cheaper option. That being said, a good set of PL mount lenses can easily blow out whatever money you would have saved on buying an F3 over the FS700.

Do you have a collection of glass already?

By the time you properly kit out an Odyssey your are looking at $4-5k depending on which SSD's you buy

So if you find a used FS700 for about $6500 add $4000 for an operational Odyssey 7Q then add money for glass

Metabones Speed Booster EF to NEX - $600
Tokina 11-16mm - $500
Tamron 24-70mm - $1300
Canon 70-200mm f2.8 (non IS version) - $1500
Total: $3900

or

Metabones Speed Booster EF to NEX - $600
Rokinon Cine Prime Lens Kit $2500
Total: $3100

Total FS700 investment: $14,400 - $13,600

Used F3 $5500
Hyperdeck shuttle + SSD's = $750-$1250
Range of PL Mount Lenses.....$12-$20k minimum

Personally, if you have the money I would choose the FS700 route. By the time you factor in glass I beleive you are cheaper with the FS700 and you have a more capable camera as far as recording options are concerned.
 
The choice is very obvious if price is the only consideration but I would caution anyone about solely making a decision on "cost" which can be quite short-sighted. In reality if "cost" is an issue you could get a DSLR that would rival images out of an F3 for 90% of work and put the money you save to some good LED panels and sound equipment you will also need.

All camera's have some naughty list of issues that can all be dealt with and worked around one way or another, for example even the F55 does some tricks with it's sensor to get HFR, big deal. A shuttle deck might be cheap but many guys who actually work in the field go back to recording internally since 10-bit can be overkill for the majority of work. 8-bit is all you need more than half the time but at least with the FS700 you can do a moderate version of RAW that is only 12-bit instead of the killer 16-bit on F5/F55 which is just too disk intensive. (I wish my F55 had 12-bit RAW option).

Since the poster is looking at using this equipment for a business (read it in another post of his) I would also consider the marketing aspect of the camera package. The FS700 + Odyssey is hot right now and catching on like wild fire. "Bugs" will always exist but you can tell from Dan and Mitch they are honest guys and 101% committed to their consumers and listening to them and making things better all the time. With a FS700 + Odyssey you can advertise local rentals for it and with only a handful per year pull in a few bucks to help pay for some your initial capital you might have "stretched" for. Even if you never do a single rental those ads will still help you establish contacts and can grow your network and business.

As I said the Odyssey is "hot" right now and although sad but true but hitching a ride on this latest hype is a great way to establish connections with others in your area PLUS let others know you are using some of the "latest and greatest" hardware.
 
starcentral said:
The choice is very obvious if price is the only consideration but I would caution anyone about solely making a decision on "cost" which can be quite short-sighted. In reality if "cost" is an issue you could get a DSLR that would rival images out of an F3 for 90% of work and put the money you save to some good LED panels and sound equipment you will also need.
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This is the truest thing said. I've had to learn this lesson the hard way, buying things twice because I wanted to save a few bucks the first time. Buy wrong, by twice; buy right, buy once.

I have the FS700 and the 7Q and I personally say the image that it produces is Stellar. Really amazing and for around $12K (camera + 7Q), it's a great value. Maybe wait a few weeks until the new Firmware upgrade comes out with the 4:2:2 10-bit in Pro-Res and see how that does. The 2K RAW footage is fantastic, but it's weighty for sure. I think what most people want is the HD 10-bit codec.
 
I don't think I have enough funds to use either one of these cameras to their full potential (would have to save up).

My camera budget is probably closer to $5,000-$8,000. I have no good glass or much of anything useful for these cameras. Basically have to buy everything. Seems it would make more sense to get a lower end camera? Or is better to get a higher end camera with minimal accessories (and save to buy up later)?

Would it make more sense to get an FS100 and rent the fS700 on as needed basis? I was also looking at the AF100, any recommendations?
 
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Maybe look at a C100. It's not really in the same league as the FS700 + 7Q or F3, but I would take that over the FS100.
 
I understand you need a camera, but if I were you, I would drop it on glass, what I'm saying is I would rather have a gh3 with decent glass, than an f3 with crappy glass. Obviously your not getting anything great for that price range, but if I were you, I would look at a set of the Samyang cine lenses, 8mm, 16mm, 24mm, 35mm, 85mm . 5d3, decent baseplate, follow focus, and the best set of sticks you can afford with the remainder.
 
I have a friend once who told me a story about how instead of buying one of the most expensive camera that was the latest and greatest (like a RED) he bought 3 Canon XH-A1's. Even though those Canon camera's were only 1/3" CCD etc.. he got more jobs owning three cameras because he could do multi-camera coverage for interviews, events, and other types of jobs. Depending on the job it also cut down on production time when shooting with multiple cameras.

Do you already have all the other equipment you will need for production and post production?

You sound like you are at the very beginning of the video production frontier. I wouldn't even think of a F3 or FS700 with RAW at this point, or expensive glass that your clients won't see a difference in. Go get a 7D or 60D and one lens, a 28-105mm f4 for $600 that will cover you for 95% of shooting situations. Spend your other money on a slider or cheap dolly your tripod can go on. Get a zoomH4 or H6 recorder and an NTG-2 mic and boom pole, get a wireless mic or two, buy a couple of large used soft boxes, maybe get an LED panel. Follow focus, matte box and all that are nice but not necessary. I have all that stuff and most of the time leave it in the truck and it only comes out for dog and pony shows. you don't "really" need that stuff. Get a nice set of .3, .6, .9 ND filters for your lens.

If you do things right, regardless of the fancy camera or glass you should be able to make some really pretty pictures and some decent work you can use to put on your website, promote yourself, and get other clients down the road.

In the meantime go get experience with higher-end cameras which you can do by going to open houses in your area held by rental houses or bigger professional broadcast retailers. Learn the menus and how you might shoot with it if you had to. Tell your clients if they have a bigger budget and need higher quality you can rent additional equipment as necessary. Don't ever sound like just because you don't own it you don't shoot with it. That's a huge mistake and will keep the impression people have of you as the "low end video guy".

You are video production company with experience on all levels from small scale budgeted projects to bigger ones. That's how you can position yourself so you don't have to worry about what you own.
 
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