Hello It's me again. I have a question. I want to shoot a pilot ready to air on TV. Now I see shows like smallvile and supernatural being shot on hd. My questions are. 1) when you give it to the industrey is it shot on 720 or 1080. 2) What do they render as: uncompressed or what format wmv etc...? and lastly 3 I have seen some shows that were an hr long in hd and yet it was like 400mb which is amazing considering mine are in the 50 gig range or more. I have searched and found nothing and i know you guys always help me when I need it and i had no one to turn too. thank you so much for all help in advance.
Broadcast question
- Thread starter vortex677
- Start date
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Hi Vortex:
Are you shooting a spec pilot or a real pilot that has been commissioned? If it's spec, shoot it on anything you want. If it has been commissioned, your network producer will have production and post specs for you that will tell you all of this.
Get the gig first. You are putting the cart before the horse. Each different broadcast outlet has a delivery spec sheet. PBS and A&E in particular have some of the most stringent delivery specs out there on the US market.
You should know that although some outlets like Discovery will accept shows that have HVX-200 footage in them, they limit the percentage that can be shot on an HVX. They look at the HVX as a viable "b" camera, not as a main camera.
Almost all U.S. broadcast outlets want a 1080i master, usually on D5. You can shoot and edit your entire project in 720P, edit it in 720P and just do the upconversion at the end. Many LA post houses can accept a QuickTime and upres it to 1080i and output it to D5 for you, it's very common.
The HVX-200, mainly because of the size of it's imaging chips, is still a second class citizen for many broadcasters. You are taken more seriously if you shoot on a Varicam or F900. That said, if you deliver compelling programming that can sell advertising and obtain an audience, they won't care what you shot it on.
One of my favorites, "Feasting on Asphalt" on Food Network is shot mainly on the HVX-200. But it is a great little show, low budget, creative and interesting.
All the best,
Dan
Are you shooting a spec pilot or a real pilot that has been commissioned? If it's spec, shoot it on anything you want. If it has been commissioned, your network producer will have production and post specs for you that will tell you all of this.
Get the gig first. You are putting the cart before the horse. Each different broadcast outlet has a delivery spec sheet. PBS and A&E in particular have some of the most stringent delivery specs out there on the US market.
You should know that although some outlets like Discovery will accept shows that have HVX-200 footage in them, they limit the percentage that can be shot on an HVX. They look at the HVX as a viable "b" camera, not as a main camera.
Almost all U.S. broadcast outlets want a 1080i master, usually on D5. You can shoot and edit your entire project in 720P, edit it in 720P and just do the upconversion at the end. Many LA post houses can accept a QuickTime and upres it to 1080i and output it to D5 for you, it's very common.
The HVX-200, mainly because of the size of it's imaging chips, is still a second class citizen for many broadcasters. You are taken more seriously if you shoot on a Varicam or F900. That said, if you deliver compelling programming that can sell advertising and obtain an audience, they won't care what you shot it on.
One of my favorites, "Feasting on Asphalt" on Food Network is shot mainly on the HVX-200. But it is a great little show, low budget, creative and interesting.
All the best,
Dan
Can they realy tell the diffrence between varicam and hvx200 If shot carefuly? What I want to do is shoot 12 episodes of a show to be ready for tv. Now if it doesint get accepted I want to try to go world wide if I have too; but if it wont make it I''ll always have it for myself. If 12 episodes were polished to specification can you realy tell the diffrence? Aside from the size with a 35mm lense, good lighting and flawless work in post and monitoring. I realy can't see the difrence myself between them. I am not a DP though so i might be realy off at this. Is it true? So I should shoot on 1080? I know the cart before the horse but everything was paid for and the locations and actors are there and all we have to do is shoot it. I know many have claimed there shows are the best or great; but I have made a show that was never done before i believe ever. It's just when I shoot it I don't want them telling me to shoot it all over again like they did to a coligue of mine who was shooting sd at the time.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
I think most video engineers and DPs could tell if something is shot on a Varicam or an HVX. The giveaways would be depth of field and noise in low light. An HVX as tremendous depth of field, which a Varicam would not have since it uses a much larger sensor. Unless the HVX had a 35mm adapter but then it would have a LOT less depth of field than a Varicam. Then seeing noise in all of your darks would be a dead giveaway, Varicams have MUCH cleaner picture depth and definitely cleaner darks. What if they want your tape masters for a re-edit for promos? Are you going to dub all of your P2 card material to DVCProHD tape? It all comes down to the terms of the contract. Sure, you can lie and tell them you shot it on a Varicam or Panavision or whatever but that's not generally a great way to build a lasting relationship with a television network. Being caught in a lie is a great way to show your professionalism, builds a lot trust...
It sounds to me as if you are doing this on spec which means, honestly, your chances of selling this are pretty low, regardless of how much effort you put into it. I am not saying this to put down your show or idea (heck, I don't even know what it is) but many people have spent many millions of dollars and thousands of hours shooting a series that they think will be the next big thing. A few of them are but most of them aren't and never get distribution. I am in the same boat that you are, I am working on a couple of pilot scripts right now for new series. I will not shoot a series though or probably even an entire piilot until we have pitched it and at least have some interest though. Spending thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours in the hopes that someone will buy your series is usually reserved for the big boys, who have big bucks, not for us. It's like anything else, if you gamble big, you can win big but the odds are definitely that you will fail to sell your series.
If you don't have a contract and an offer, heck, shoot it on anything you want. Networks buy ideas and trust in working with show runners they like, they don't buy tapes and formats. Yes, they do have their technical standards but honestly, meeting tech delivery specs is at the end, after you have meetings, screenings, pitches, more meetings, etc. Anything can always be up-rezed, reshot, re-imagined and re-scripted, unless you are shooting non-repeatable events or people.
If you can afford to shoot it on a better camera, do it, but don't let your lack of access to a Varicam or RED or F900 stop you from creating your vision. The HVX can make very good looking images so why not get a good DP and shoot? If your material is good enough, really won't matter if it was shot on an HVX.
Delivery specs are for 1080i delivery. The footage can be shot on almost any HD format. If you can afford enough FireStores or P2 cards to shoot on 1080, it saves you a step, but as you know, 720 24PN gets you the longeest run times and variable frame rates, 1080 doesn't. Beware that converting progressive formats to interlaced at the end requires a very good convertor that will cost you some $$ to have done. I have a Kona 3 and while it can convert 720 24PN footage to almost anything, it can't convert the progressive HD footage to interlaced 1080, it can only do it to progressive 1080. The networks specify 1080i D5 masters.
Best,
Dan
It sounds to me as if you are doing this on spec which means, honestly, your chances of selling this are pretty low, regardless of how much effort you put into it. I am not saying this to put down your show or idea (heck, I don't even know what it is) but many people have spent many millions of dollars and thousands of hours shooting a series that they think will be the next big thing. A few of them are but most of them aren't and never get distribution. I am in the same boat that you are, I am working on a couple of pilot scripts right now for new series. I will not shoot a series though or probably even an entire piilot until we have pitched it and at least have some interest though. Spending thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours in the hopes that someone will buy your series is usually reserved for the big boys, who have big bucks, not for us. It's like anything else, if you gamble big, you can win big but the odds are definitely that you will fail to sell your series.
If you don't have a contract and an offer, heck, shoot it on anything you want. Networks buy ideas and trust in working with show runners they like, they don't buy tapes and formats. Yes, they do have their technical standards but honestly, meeting tech delivery specs is at the end, after you have meetings, screenings, pitches, more meetings, etc. Anything can always be up-rezed, reshot, re-imagined and re-scripted, unless you are shooting non-repeatable events or people.
If you can afford to shoot it on a better camera, do it, but don't let your lack of access to a Varicam or RED or F900 stop you from creating your vision. The HVX can make very good looking images so why not get a good DP and shoot? If your material is good enough, really won't matter if it was shot on an HVX.
Delivery specs are for 1080i delivery. The footage can be shot on almost any HD format. If you can afford enough FireStores or P2 cards to shoot on 1080, it saves you a step, but as you know, 720 24PN gets you the longeest run times and variable frame rates, 1080 doesn't. Beware that converting progressive formats to interlaced at the end requires a very good convertor that will cost you some $$ to have done. I have a Kona 3 and while it can convert 720 24PN footage to almost anything, it can't convert the progressive HD footage to interlaced 1080, it can only do it to progressive 1080. The networks specify 1080i D5 masters.
Best,
Dan
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Thank you so much for all your help. I am still going to give a stab at it. I spent money already and I would be crazy if I wouldint give it atleast one shot ya know? Do you know what I should render it to like what format. Uncompressed,wmv,mpeg2 etc... I am lost. I am geting a Blackmagic Multibridge Pro.
Is that like a kona will it enable me to convert files? I just want to make it as close as possible. Thank you so much again.
Is that like a kona will it enable me to convert files? I just want to make it as close as possible. Thank you so much again.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Sounds good.
I assume you are shooting P2? 720 24PN or 1080? What flavor of 1080?
Are you in a PAL or NTSC country?
Describe your system and workflow. I can't recommend anything if I don't know what you shot, how long your show is, what version of FCP, do you have the BMD MBPro yet?
Need da details man!
The Kona upconverts/downconverts/crossconverts, it is excellent. The BMD product is also excellent but it doesn't upconvert. Not sure if it will cross convert.
Dan
I assume you are shooting P2? 720 24PN or 1080? What flavor of 1080?
Are you in a PAL or NTSC country?
Describe your system and workflow. I can't recommend anything if I don't know what you shot, how long your show is, what version of FCP, do you have the BMD MBPro yet?
Need da details man!
The Kona upconverts/downconverts/crossconverts, it is excellent. The BMD product is also excellent but it doesn't upconvert. Not sure if it will cross convert.
Dan
I am shooting 1080 24p I have acess to premire and vegas and after effects. My pc is a dual core with two sli 8800gts 640mbs in it with 3mb of ram and 4 terabytes. I am getting the blackmagic multibridge for monitoring. I have 20 terabytes of external hard drives and 2 firestores. a letus flip extreem I am geting with a nikon prime lense. two hvx200s i will have acess to all those. I will shoot mostly in the daylight in forests and someshots indoors with sufficant lighting. we have a dolly a crane and stabalizer. I dont have p2 cards due two the little room you have and cost. I own a generator so I belive firestores are the best considering i am shooting at 1080. Its all on NTSC on a pc. I have also a blueray for recording back up. I know im a little nuts when it comes to back up mainly cause i like to archive my raw files on external drives. I dont know if its sane but sometimes i like to change color grading or editing thats why. Let me know what you think and i got to tell you thank you so much for helpinga feeble minded person like myself. Im cluless on alot of stuff but have the ambition for it. Not to mention support from freinds that we are all gona do it together. thank you again.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Hi:
Sounds like you have access to some good resources. The Aja Kona card only works on the Mac and FCP so I am not sure where that would apply to you. Aja does make the Xena cards for PCs but I know nothing about those or PCs unfortunately. I think that the end product files for most PC apps are something like WMV 9 or AVIs? I also know that you can generate QuickTimes from the PC as well, which are pretty universal for dub houses as most of them deal mostly with Macs. As far as the codec, well, the hottest new codec for this would be Apple's new ProRes 422 codec but once again, Mac only. I would hookup with a good post/dub house and get their advice about which kinds of files/codecs to turn in to them to do what you need to have done.
If you are shooting 1080 24p, you still will need a high-end conversion to turn that progressive to interlaced but it's just a matter of paying for the dub.
Good luck,
Dan
Sounds like you have access to some good resources. The Aja Kona card only works on the Mac and FCP so I am not sure where that would apply to you. Aja does make the Xena cards for PCs but I know nothing about those or PCs unfortunately. I think that the end product files for most PC apps are something like WMV 9 or AVIs? I also know that you can generate QuickTimes from the PC as well, which are pretty universal for dub houses as most of them deal mostly with Macs. As far as the codec, well, the hottest new codec for this would be Apple's new ProRes 422 codec but once again, Mac only. I would hookup with a good post/dub house and get their advice about which kinds of files/codecs to turn in to them to do what you need to have done.
If you are shooting 1080 24p, you still will need a high-end conversion to turn that progressive to interlaced but it's just a matter of paying for the dub.
Good luck,
Dan
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Before making and definitive rulings on which codec you should render to, I would seriously consult with whomever will do your final master cross conversion/outputs and broadcast conforming and see which codec they can deal with. Even if you output uncompressed QuickTime from your BMD card, it will have the BMD codec unless you give it a different codec, right? What if they have Aja? What if they don't have either? You have to give them a format that they can deal with.
For editing, I would use whatever lossless or low loss codec your system has, then consult with your post house on what they need for delivery to them. The wisest thing to do is to bring your final output from your system to a post house for final color correction and broadcast conform. They have broadcast safe boxes and or filters that can make sure that your video conforms with broadcast standards and a professional colorist can always do a better color correction/grading than an editor with a system can. Very few editors are as skilled as a professional colorist at color correction and grading. I have been trying to convince a client I am working with of the same. Sure FCP now has Color and it is good but very few people have the training that a professional colorist has in doing this. Our film is destined for Sundance, then a sale so I told the director and exec producer they need to spend the money and give the film to a professional colorist for finish. Our film has tons of archival footage in it that was shot in every format and era imaginable so in order to make all of this disparate imagery at least look it's best, they need to have a professional's eye.
Good luck,
Dan
For editing, I would use whatever lossless or low loss codec your system has, then consult with your post house on what they need for delivery to them. The wisest thing to do is to bring your final output from your system to a post house for final color correction and broadcast conform. They have broadcast safe boxes and or filters that can make sure that your video conforms with broadcast standards and a professional colorist can always do a better color correction/grading than an editor with a system can. Very few editors are as skilled as a professional colorist at color correction and grading. I have been trying to convince a client I am working with of the same. Sure FCP now has Color and it is good but very few people have the training that a professional colorist has in doing this. Our film is destined for Sundance, then a sale so I told the director and exec producer they need to spend the money and give the film to a professional colorist for finish. Our film has tons of archival footage in it that was shot in every format and era imaginable so in order to make all of this disparate imagery at least look it's best, they need to have a professional's eye.
Good luck,
Dan
puredrifting
Major Contributor
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Of course, that's book rate. You can make a better deal than $700.00 per hour to D5. As far as the amount of hours needed. A lot of that depends on how complex your shots are and how many scene to scene variables there are. In other words, if your show consists of four talking head interviews and a little b-roll, that would be quicker to color correct because once the talking heads are color corrected, you just transfer the settings to each scene, provided the scenes don't change a lot. If it were me, I would budget for four to six hours for a basic pass. Could be a lot more, people spend a week color correcting a :30 spot and I have seen people color correct an entire feature in 2 days. It's just like editing, how long will it take to edit something? Depends on so many factors. How it was shot, how complex are the visual concepts. How tightly was it scripted and shot, etc. Color correction is the same, the more problems the colorist has to solve, the longer it takes. But it's worth it when you see your finished show. Final grading makes a HUGE difference, it's like mastering in music, same concept.
Best,
Dan
Best,
Dan
ProfessorU
Veteran
Speaking of the differences between the cams...
the f900 and similar cost cams have a higher horizontal resolution, true 1920x1080 as opposed to the 1280(NTSC) or 1440(PAL) horizontal rezzes on the HVX. So you're losing 1/3 the detail shooting on the HVX.
A 35mm adapter, when used properly, should be able to match DOF anywhere. You're never going to be able to match latitude on the HVX. That's where a great DP comes in.
You might want to have a single p2 card on hand in case you want something slowmo.
If I were working on the project I'd rent a Viper, at least for one of the episodes. Or, I'd shoot this for a lot less, banking on being able to reshoot it afterward if the show got picked up.
the f900 and similar cost cams have a higher horizontal resolution, true 1920x1080 as opposed to the 1280(NTSC) or 1440(PAL) horizontal rezzes on the HVX. So you're losing 1/3 the detail shooting on the HVX.
A 35mm adapter, when used properly, should be able to match DOF anywhere. You're never going to be able to match latitude on the HVX. That's where a great DP comes in.
You might want to have a single p2 card on hand in case you want something slowmo.
If I were working on the project I'd rent a Viper, at least for one of the episodes. Or, I'd shoot this for a lot less, banking on being able to reshoot it afterward if the show got picked up.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
A Viper? Isn't it a pimped out car that Chrysler makes for guys who were rejected from the the CMLCC? You know, the Corvette Male Length Compensation Club?
D
D
ProfessorU
Veteran
Viper:
http://www.thomsongrassvalley.com/products/cameras/viper/
You can rent it for under $2000 for a day and it's better than twins. I know "The Riches" on FX uses this cam.
http://www.thomsongrassvalley.com/products/cameras/viper/
You can rent it for under $2000 for a day and it's better than twins. I know "The Riches" on FX uses this cam.
dregenthal
Veteran
Vortex677- Just a quick though . . . I read your comment about backing up to blu-ray. I've got one and it's great for burning discs to view on my Bravia but, time-wise, I wouldn't consider it for archieval use (but that's just me).
I see your plans are to use a PC (as do I). I recently upgraded from an LTO-2 to an LTO-3 tape drive (e-bay, $1100). You'll need a SCSI card but in native (uncompressed -- you're not going to compress MXF files much) an LTO-3 drive will archive *up to* 245 GB an hour. Just a thought . . . if you'll have a lot of footage to protect (I still have a complete set on drives as well).
I see your plans are to use a PC (as do I). I recently upgraded from an LTO-2 to an LTO-3 tape drive (e-bay, $1100). You'll need a SCSI card but in native (uncompressed -- you're not going to compress MXF files much) an LTO-3 drive will archive *up to* 245 GB an hour. Just a thought . . . if you'll have a lot of footage to protect (I still have a complete set on drives as well).
If I'm not mistaken, Michael Mann shot most of Collateral and Miami Vice with the Viper as well. Also, David Fincher used the Viper for all of Zodiac.
dregenthal vbmenu_register("postmenu_1066446", true); woulding external harddrives be cheaper. I back up the mxf files on those and blue ray on those and the blueraydvd.