Great work, Liam (Twenty Twenty). It really moved me. It's the sort of thing I'd like to do exclusively, like most people here I guess. My (somewhat simplistic) ideal would be to win the lottery, buy some great gear, assemble a young team and spend my time helping less fortunate people with similar videos. It's ok to dream, I guess.
FS7: Brand film.
- Thread starter Liam Hall
- Start date
Liam Hall
Veteran
Cheers Mick.
Liam Hall
Veteran
It's not a bad thing to aim for. Though, you may have to bite the bullet and work for a few unsavoury corporates along they way
icarusfilm
Veteran
every criminal has a right to proper legal representation.
Liam Hall
Veteran
I have no idea what this means Lol! Are you quoting Law and Order?
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
I kind of get what that means.. or maybe it should be 'every NON criminal has a right to do a promo vid'.. even if they are selling Snake Oil (legal) is it our job to turn them down?
On my Army stuff (Im not personally convinced about professional killing) I happen to feel that I can do 'good' from the inside. As director shooter I usually give my army films a certain serious tone that I hope brings an element that the job is a very serious one. Which means (hopefully) I have a minor element in recruiting people to the army that are at least there for the 'right' reasons not just gung ho loons.
I do to some extent pride myself on working for 'odd' clients ie if you aproach me to promote your new mountain bike (cool to film) or new doggy poo bag (less cool to film) you will get a positive response from me
On my Army stuff (Im not personally convinced about professional killing) I happen to feel that I can do 'good' from the inside. As director shooter I usually give my army films a certain serious tone that I hope brings an element that the job is a very serious one. Which means (hopefully) I have a minor element in recruiting people to the army that are at least there for the 'right' reasons not just gung ho loons.
I do to some extent pride myself on working for 'odd' clients ie if you aproach me to promote your new mountain bike (cool to film) or new doggy poo bag (less cool to film) you will get a positive response from me
Sadly, true. Maybe I would increase my chances if I actually bought a lottery ticket...It's not a bad thing to aim for. Though, you may have to bite the bullet and work for a few unsavoury corporates along they way
Liam Hall
Veteran
I kind of get what that means.. or maybe it should be 'every NON criminal has a right to do a promo vid'.. even if they are selling Snake Oil (legal) is it our job to turn them down?
On my Army stuff (Im not personally convinced about professional killing) I happen to feel that I can do 'good' from the inside. As director shooter I usually give my army films a certain serious tone that I hope brings an element that the job is a very serious one. Which means (hopefully) I have a minor element in recruiting people to the army that are at least there for the 'right' reasons not just gung ho loons.
I do to some extent pride myself on working for 'odd' clients ie if you aproach me to promote your new mountain bike (cool to film) or new doggy poo bag (less cool to film) you will get a positive response from me
Ah yes, makes perfect sense now you've explained it to me!! And yes, I also agree about working for odd clients. Though, spending a week on an aircraft carrier or filming under the nose of Hezbollah bring their own excitement
Liam Hall
Veteran
Nah, you'd just be wasting your money! Save that pound and
In all seriousness, if you want to get into making films of a humanitarian nature, like wildlife shooting, the best thing to do is to start local, maybe there's a local charity you can help. Don't worry about the kit, just tell a great story with compassion. Jobs will follow.
Totally agree about helping local charities. In between paying clients last year I did a mini feature (for free) for a drama student at the local high school. Sort of charity and a brief insight to the business for a handful of great kids.
Re the gear, I just swapped the Canon C300 mk2 for the FS7 (much better IMHO) so I’m happy with that bit of things, just dream of the Amira, with a full set of primes, etc. etc… but also totally agree that it’s the story told with passion and belief that really matters. Like Twenty Twenty.
Re the gear, I just swapped the Canon C300 mk2 for the FS7 (much better IMHO) so I’m happy with that bit of things, just dream of the Amira, with a full set of primes, etc. etc… but also totally agree that it’s the story told with passion and belief that really matters. Like Twenty Twenty.
icarusfilm
Veteran
You know shooting a Dior commercial promising women that if they stay 16 forever and weigh 45 Kilos they will be sought after as trophy wives to rich men does not exactly make the world a better place.
There is a dark underbelly to most things we shoot and times we have to turn something down bt we can't do a background check on everybody.
There is a dark underbelly to most things we shoot and times we have to turn something down bt we can't do a background check on everybody.
Ah yes, makes perfect sense now you've explained it to me!! And yes, I also agree about working for odd clients. Though, spending a week on an aircraft carrier or filming under the nose of Hezbollah bring their own excitement
jasonbrooks
Well-known member
Fascinating discussion all around. Thanks everyone for chipping in, and well done for avoiding a complete descent in the ****-throwing fest that online 'debate' usually quickly becomes. It's a mean world out there for sure, and of course we don't always have a choice about who pays our bills. I guess there is no one single moral code, and I certainly hope that you didn't think I was judging you by asking my original question Liam. I personally think that the future of our food systems is one of the most far-reaching and potentially frightening issues that face humanity as a whole right now, and that indubitably informed my shocked tone. I honestly wasn't intending to try to take the moral high ground, even if that's how it might've read.
You're right that Aramco was the end client for a film I shot for, and although it was a promo for one of their projects, I don't think that the film directly related to promoting the S@udi governments, politics, or any of the other long list of extremely dodgy things that the S@udi government is involved in. It was actually promoting their new "cultural knowledge centre", which IMO is a pretty clear attempt by them to kick-start a knowledge-economy as they've realised that they'll be in a pretty perilous position when the oil starts to dry up in a few decades if they don't!
Again, I'm not trying to claim any high ground, and if I was some sort of saint then I certainly would've steered clear of the project regardless, but as it was the five days we spent in-country being tour-guided by Aramco execs, was EXTREMELY informative about the situation on the ground there (they were so obviously spoiled by their cushy jobs that their naivety led them to revealing lots of really interesting facts about civilian life there, seemingly without even realising it). Also, the chance to see and shoot at the UNESCO site at Mada'in Saleh was also one of the most amazing things I'll probably ever do.
So, in conclusion, it seems that we all (more or less) agree that: a) beggars can't be choosers, and one must first and foremost make a living by doing what we do; and b) that we all "draw the line" somewhere between what we would and wouldn't want to put our skills into creating. The choice as to where we draw that line is obviously personal, and is both pragmatic (in the sense of how much choice we are fortunate to have at the point of saying yes or no) AND moral. Some people choose to abscond themselves from almost any responsibility by saying "it's just my job", and others are willing and able to turn down (some) work to allow them to sleep better at night.
My ten cents would just be - make sure you're at least THINKING about what you do with your time and talent now, because by the time you're retired you'll definitely have plenty of time to consider what you might've wished you'd done differently. Again, those are MY thoughts, and are certainly not specifically directed at you Liam! ;-)
... right, now off to do a final revision on my pitch to run Teresa May's forthcoming video campaign. Fake news? You ain't seen nothing yet... :-D
Cheers gents,
jason
Liam Hall
Veteran
It's all good. I jumped on Mark a little too quickly, but we've kept it civil. All grown ups here...
I've shot loads of stuff that World Cultural Centre and Saudi Aramco, so I'm not judging you. The point is, it's complicated. Often very complicated.
BTW I've shot Mada'in Saleh too, part of a 40 minute BTS documentary I made for the World Cultural Centre:
Yep. That's pretty much it
Liam Hall
Veteran
Bang on the money.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
When I was doing still s I had a wry smile when approached by both the Conseravtives and Lib Dems to do thier promotional stills for an election 2002?
Obviously I did both jobs and voted for neither party
icarusfilm
Veteran
A couple of years ago my phone rings in February on the other end was a former BBC Washington correspondant calling on Sat phone out of South Africa on a very bad connection about a rush job on fracking smack in the middle of rural West Virginia. The entire North east of the US was in the middle of the biggest Blizzard of the last 10 years. My sound guy and I drive from NYC to West Virginia through a Blizzard as all flights to anywhere were canceled. Upon arrival I am really surprised about the level of access we were getting from the fracking company usually you get nothing from them as they know how the story is bound to pan out. an hour into it I am beginning to realize we are shooting FOR the frackers. Turns out the BBC gal has gone over to the dark side.
The discussion's coming along but something Jason said requires clarification at the risk of sounding pedantic.
Beggars can be choosers. It seems we're irrefutably agreed on this. Life or liberty, better to die on your feet than live on your knees, blah, blah, blah.
There are absolutely jobs and clients that no one here would work for. And then there are some you would if it were shown they are moving towards change and you can nudge them along. The Saudi situation typifies this.
One thing is clear. It's never just about the money, right? Pofessional pride and development, personal investment, and contributing to a better future for your kids are very powerful motivators.
But, hey, there's also a couple of other thoughts here.
Firstly, fun is important and by that no one's talking about partying. Discovering new stuff and ideas, people and places is one of the coolest benefits of this job. You're making TV/video but you're watching it live as well as you record it. Like Liam, I've filmed in prisons in Jordan, the Maldives, slums in India and Thailand, filmed in Geneva, Rome and Paris and the access you get to people and places is unbelievable and there's an absurd amount of trust placed in you.
So the second thought is this: you do this work also to bear witness to life in all its craziness and wonder. Yes, there can be tedium but there's so much more. And for that I am thankful and want to give back.
Beggars can be choosers. It seems we're irrefutably agreed on this. Life or liberty, better to die on your feet than live on your knees, blah, blah, blah.
There are absolutely jobs and clients that no one here would work for. And then there are some you would if it were shown they are moving towards change and you can nudge them along. The Saudi situation typifies this.
One thing is clear. It's never just about the money, right? Pofessional pride and development, personal investment, and contributing to a better future for your kids are very powerful motivators.
But, hey, there's also a couple of other thoughts here.
Firstly, fun is important and by that no one's talking about partying. Discovering new stuff and ideas, people and places is one of the coolest benefits of this job. You're making TV/video but you're watching it live as well as you record it. Like Liam, I've filmed in prisons in Jordan, the Maldives, slums in India and Thailand, filmed in Geneva, Rome and Paris and the access you get to people and places is unbelievable and there's an absurd amount of trust placed in you.
So the second thought is this: you do this work also to bear witness to life in all its craziness and wonder. Yes, there can be tedium but there's so much more. And for that I am thankful and want to give back.
Liam Hall
Veteran
The only reason I work the corporate/government/ngo sector is the access to people and places that I get. It's far more fulfilling than when I worked in advertising and rock 'n' roll. That said, you do need to find the right clients, which is not always easy.
Interesting discussion.
I don't agree with 'beggars can't choose' because they can.
I think all depends on your point of view or the point of view your client will make with your footage.
Journalism: OK
Documentary: OK
Propaganda: depends, can be good can be bad.
Commercials: can be good or bad. (Anyone who makes cigarette commercials is now almost criminal and can be blamed for that I think.) You can't hide behind your camera.
One cannot always say don't shoot the messenger, the messenger can be held responsible for his/hers point of view. That gives filmmakers and cameramen great responsibility.
I don't agree with 'beggars can't choose' because they can.
I think all depends on your point of view or the point of view your client will make with your footage.
Journalism: OK
Documentary: OK
Propaganda: depends, can be good can be bad.
Commercials: can be good or bad. (Anyone who makes cigarette commercials is now almost criminal and can be blamed for that I think.) You can't hide behind your camera.
One cannot always say don't shoot the messenger, the messenger can be held responsible for his/hers point of view. That gives filmmakers and cameramen great responsibility.