BOOM IN THE SHOT -- Who's fault is it? POLL

[filmmakerguy]

Alright, so I got into this big debate with a filmmaker friend of mine. A friend of mine is working on a project and I saw some of the footage and there is a boom in the shot and some boom shadows. Who's fault is it? Who takes the blame?

 

[Gary Huff]

Whoever is watching the monitor in the video village is to blame.

 

[filmmakerguy]

Whoever is watching the monitor in the video village is to blame.

Many indie projects don't have video village setup.

 

[paulears]

The boom op is guilty of not checking.
The Cameraman is guilty of not noticing.
The DP is guilty of not noticing
The Director is guilty of not noticing.

You can't blame the editor!

If the boom op didn't say at some point "Am I in shot, how much clearance?" he should have!
The camera op should have seen it - he should be looking at what is in frame.
The DP didn't look at the monitor and notice it when he should.
The Director should have noticed the others had messed up.

So easy to do, but should have been sorted with that number of creatives about!

 

[filmmakerguy]

Okay, so here is the argument as to why these were listed....

The Audio Guy/Boom Op/Sound Recordist - technically they should know where their line is and not cross it. Hell, that's like one of the functions of their job. Hold the boom and don't cross the line!

The DP - You are the one lighting it, you are the one sometimes even monitoring focus and photography, why didn't you say something?

The Director - Why aren't you behind a monitor watching these things? Why didn't you call cut? Even if your DP, Audio Guy, Camera Op saw it, they aren't going to mess up your shot because you may get something out of it...so they may let it roll. Why didn't you see it? Are you not looking for these things? Okay the movie is done, why aren't you going back to reshoot it?

The Camera Operator - Maybe someone else was running the camera, maybe it was a multi-cam. If we see a movie with a boom dip in frame, we should assume the camera op on that camera should have caught it.

The Editor - You're the editor, you see the footage, zoom in and crop it out. Mask over it. If it's released with it in it, you're to blame too.

All of their faults

 

[filmmakerguy]

The boom op is guilty of not checking.
The Cameraman is guilty of not noticing.
The DP is guilty of not noticing
The Director is guilty of not noticing.

You can't blame the editor!

If the boom op didn't say at some point "Am I in shot, how much clearance?" he should have!
The camera op should have seen it - he should be looking at what is in frame.
The DP didn't look at the monitor and notice it when he should.
The Director should have noticed the others had messed up.

So easy to do, but should have been sorted with that number of creatives about!

See and that is the dilemma. My argument is that technically a lot of people can be to blame. My filmmaker friend feels that I am just taking up for whoever is running camera. His thoughts are the director can't be behind a monitor at all times (because he's dealing with the actors) and has to learn to trust whoever is running it. He blames the camera operator or whoever is looking at that particular camera/monitor.

I think that technically, the director should at all times be monitoring for this stuff out of experience and if a studio came down and saw some dallies, the director would take the hit and in some cases could even be fired. It's an interesting argument.

 

[filmmakerguy]

From my experience on a shoot, we had a boom guy casting a shadow on a wall, I was the one who told him to move to the other side and I had him adjust it until it was fixed. Is the DP or camera operator going to tell a boom op what to do like that, order him around? Probably not! So again...who's fault is it.

 

[Jon Starr]

From my experience on a shoot, we had a boom guy casting a shadow on a wall, I was the one who told him to move to the other side and I had him adjust it until it was fixed. Is the DP or camera operator going to tell a boom op what to do like that, order him around? Probably not! So again...who's fault is it.

What was your position on the shoot?

Why can't the cam op or DP tell the boom guy he's in the light? It's not "ordering around", it's informing the boom op he's creating shadows.

IMO it's everyone, but more blame to the cam op/DP and boom operator. The director and team around the monitor should be focusing on it, but they sometimes have other things on their mind. The DP/cam op are supposed to be focusing on lights and what's in the frame.

 

[filmmakerguy]

What was your position on the shoot?

Why can't the cam op or DP tell the boom guy he's in the light? It's not "ordering around", it's informing the boom op he's creating shadows.

IMO it's everyone, but more blame to the cam op/DP and boom operator. The director and team around the monitor should be focusing on it, but they sometimes have other things on their mind. The DP/cam op are supposed to be focusing on lights and what's in the frame.

my role was director...they can but they usually never do...nobody wants to step on toes or be seen as trying to direct the set

 

[David Jimerson]

The sound guys are supposed to tell you when something enters the sound which shouldn't be there.

The camera guys are supposed to tell you when something's not right in the shot.

Both of these are why we have headphones and monitors.

This is not "ordering" or directing or stepping on toes; it's doing what they're on set to do.

 

[J Davis]

blame the producer,

the budget should be there to make sure the right equipment is there or enough time is allowed to get it right

otherwise they are taking on too much and the production value slips

 

[arroway]

The Director - Why aren't you behind a monitor watching these things?

A lot of directors prefer to watch the scene directly rather than hide behind video village.

 

[Barry_Green]

Jimerson got it right.

Remember once upon a time we shot film, and NOBODY had a monitor! The camera operator was the only one who saw anything at all. If there was a boom in the shot, it was the camera OP's responsibility to notice it.

 

[combatentropy]

In his book Producing Great Sound for Digital Video, Jay Rose says a boom mic should be less than two feet from the actor's mouth.

Closer is better. Too close is impossible. On some sets, a differences of a couple inches can turn usable dialog into something that has to be replaced in post. Some Hollywood mixers feel their boom operators aren't doing their jobs unless the mic dipped into the frame on at least a couple of takes.​

Are you lashing out at the boom operator if he dips the boom in shot sometimes? You're doing it wrong. As Jay stated above, it happens, even on Hollywood shoots. If the boom operator feels like a failure if on any take he got the boom in shot, then he will err on the side of being too far away, and your sound will suffer. Expect it to happen some of the time.

More advice from Jay:

- The boom operator wants the mic as close as possible. The videographer wants total freedom composing the shot. A reality check is always necessary, and --- unless you have video monitor available --- you'll have to count on the camera operator to tell you during setup how close you can get.

- You could start with the mic high and gradually lower it unitl someone says "any lower and you'll be in the shot." But that almost always results in too much safety margin, and more mic distance than is necessary....

It's better to start with the mic in the shot and gradually raise it until it can't be seen anymore.​

So, unless you give the boom operator his own monitor, then it takes the camera operator and the boom operator working closely together. So, it's both their "faults." But since it's something that's bound to happen, if you're thinking of it as someone's "fault" and that it should never happen, then you don't really understand miking.

 

[David W. Richardson]

I don't think the question is who's at fault for it happening. I think the question is who's at fault for not noticing it. And that question has been pretty thoroughly answered.

 

[combatentropy]

Or do everything yourself, so you can always just blame yourself. LOL

(skip to 1:18)

 

[filmmakerguy]

blame the producer,

the budget should be there to make sure the right equipment is there or enough time is allowed to get it right

otherwise they are taking on too much and the production value slips

LOL, that's funny. So now it's the producers fault for not making sure video village or some good monitoring system is in place. :smile:

 

[J Davis]

LOL, that's funny. So now it's the producers fault for not making sure video village or some good monitoring system is in place. :smile:

you can point fingers at each other all you want ... its the sound guys fault, its the camera mans fault, its the directors fault -- bottom line is the producer is responsible for the final product.

Steps should be made so that you have time to check for things like this before you move to the next setup. If this means less setups in one day then the producer should adjust the budget to allow for more days of shooting - or cut shots - or pay for better crew& equipment - or accepts that the final piece will have a lower production value.

 

[Alex H.]

David Jimerson is spot on.

Besides, your argument assumes concrete and unchanging factors, and that's just not the case in real life.

The Audio Guy/Boom Op/Sound Recordist - technically they should know where their line is and not cross it. Hell, that's like one of the functions of their job. Hold the boom and don't cross the line!

Okay, so what if the boom op never crosses the line, but the camera op swings the frame a little too high? As a boom op, I have had that happen on multiple occasions. I held my line, the DoP didn't. But I cannot see the frame as a boom op, so I only know the line they've talked me into before we roll.

The DP - You are the one lighting it, you are the one sometimes even monitoring focus and photography, why didn't you say something?

What if the action takes a sudden, unexpected turn? Actors can get into a groove and start to go outside blocking because it feels right for the performance. Or the DoP or camera op or Director can sense something interesting and jockey to get it, which shifts the choreography of other crew members.

The Director - Why aren't you behind a monitor watching these things? Why didn't you call cut? Even if your DP, Audio Guy, Camera Op saw it, they aren't going to mess up your shot because you may get something out of it...so they may let it roll. Why didn't you see it? Are you not looking for these things? Okay the movie is done, why aren't you going back to reshoot it?

The Director may not always be in a position to watch a monitor, but that's perfectly acceptable. As Barry pointed out, there was a time that there were no external monitors and only the DoP/camera op could actually see the frame. That still happens, too.

And a re-shoot? More often than not it's cost-prohibitive, no?

The Camera Operator - Maybe someone else was running the camera, maybe it was a multi-cam. If we see a movie with a boom dip in frame, we should assume the camera op on that camera should have caught it.

David addressed this quite well, I believe.

The Editor - You're the editor, you see the footage, zoom in and crop it out. Mask over it. If it's released with it in it, you're to blame too.

There are times when it's not practical. It's just like continuity errors in the final edit: there are times when a compromise is made based on quality of performance, where the Director and Editor know that they're using something with a visual error, but would rather sacrifice that than the energy of the actors.

And blaming the Producer is just nonsense. It's not the Producer's job to inspect every frame of footage.

The bigger question here, though: why so caught up in how/on whom to lay blame? Filmmaking is a team sport, and it takes everyone supporting each other to be successful. If it's about blame, the production will crumble quickly.

 

[Jon Starr]

It's not stepping on people's toes to tell the boom op he's in frame. It's common practice. It's a usual thing on set for the boom to dip 2-3 times every shooting day, and the cam op says "boom in frame" or "mic in frame". In fact I've heard from boom ops to specify if it's the boom or mic to not confuse, because it's such a common practice.

If a PA walks into the shot, would someone not say to get out of frame? Would it be stepping on the PAs toes? Whether it's a boom or a person, the principle is the same.

If the DP doesn't want to step on people's toes, then he shouldn't be a DP. To me, that just seems like a DP that doesn't care. "He's in my frame, ruining the shot... but I want to be nice, I'll let him stay there. Don't want to ruin the dynamic of the set." That's bad practice. If this is your experience with a DP, then you shouldn't be using him.

The bigger question here, though: why so caught up in how/on whom to lay blame? Filmmaking is a team sport, and it takes everyone supporting each other to be successful. If it's about blame, the production will crumble quickly.

Hear Hear!