Bolex D16: RAW, 16/Super 16 sensor size, costs less than MkIII

These guys undoubtingly by now have had to invest a lot of their own personal money (and probably others outside of kickstarter) to develop and D16 and get it ready for prime time along with all the other bits they've been working on.

Hopefully behind the scenes they are not over their heads, and for them this journey has been rewarding.
 
I feel sorry for the people who had backed this kickstarter project. Is there any official comment yet as to when they will deliver? They have been delayed by more than 8 months or so.

At least Blackmagic was informing people via press release that they are getting delayed, although they were putting the blame on suppliers instead of shouldering the blame. In case of Bolex we hardly hear anything. I might be wrong though. Another NAB has passed still no sign. At this rate of delay, if at all the camera comes out, then there may not be any buyers left. I am all for competition. However, they ought to first come out with a camera and with a decent mount, so that people can use their lenses. That is why Black magic came out with EF mount as one can use the numerous lenses available.

People have enough reasons to feel that this camera is DOA (Dead on Arrival), especially when Blackmagic has announced a 4k camera. Ironically, Blackmagic is in the same boat as far as delays are concerned, but have managed to get the PR ok. May be Bolex should also hire 10-20 DPs who will talk great about bolex, a la Blackmagic.
 
I think a lot of people (even non-customers) are watching Black Magic to see if they can deliver their two new cameras. Showing up to NAB with prototypes and promising the moon only goes so far. Are these non-"big-boy" companies a real alternative or just a reflection of hopes and dreams and not reality.
 
indiawilds said:
Ironically, Blackmagic is in the same boat as far as delays are concerned, but have managed to get the PR ok.
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I wouldn't call it the same boat. BM knew how to design and manufacture working cameras but a bad part got into their senor maker's supply chain, which then got into BM's cameras. It took time to ID what had happened, how it happened, how to fix it and to get the manufacturing process rolling again. DBolex still doesn't have a working camera AFAIK and they haven't mass produced anything so who know's what might crop up then.
 
indiawilds said:
I feel sorry for the people who had backed this kickstarter project. Is there any official comment yet as to when they will deliver? They have been delayed by more than 8 months or so.

At least Blackmagic was informing people via press release that they are getting delayed, although they were putting the blame on suppliers instead of shouldering the blame. In case of Bolex we hardly hear anything. I might be wrong though. Another NAB has passed still no sign. At this rate of delay, if at all the camera comes out, then there may not be any buyers left. I am all for competition. However, they ought to first come out with a camera and with a decent mount, so that people can use their lenses. That is why Black magic came out with EF mount as one can use the numerous lenses available.

People have enough reasons to feel that this camera is DOA (Dead on Arrival), especially when Blackmagic has announced a 4k camera. Ironically, Blackmagic is in the same boat as far as delays are concerned, but have managed to get the PR ok. May be Bolex should also hire 10-20 DPs who will talk great about bolex, a la Blackmagic.
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All of us who are seriously interested in the D16, including backers, are well aware of the development progress to date and know why delays have occurred. Some of the delays have been to incorporate improvements that we asked for. Engineering schedules on building any complex new electronic product like the D16 and getting it into productiion are not predictable with any high degree of certainty. You can and should set goals, but you don't know what problems are going to occur or how long it will take to solve them until it is done. Joe and Elle have been very up front and informative about ongoing status and milestones achieved.

No firm release date will be announced until the camera is 100% debugged and ready for production, which is down to tweaking firmware and sensor calibration, a much more complex process with a CCD than with a CMOS sensor. The cameras produced this year will all be hand built and individually tuned by the engineering team that developed the camera to address any possible QC issues before the cameras are shipped.

The BMC4k and pocket cam are not here yet, no footage has been seen from either, their status is completely unknown and Black Magic does not know themselves if they can meet their announced release date on either product. The original BMCC continues to be plagued with minor QC issues.

Based on its announced mass retail price alone, the total manufacturing cost for the pocket cam is significantly less than the cost of the enterprise grade SSD Bolex is building into the D16 alone. It has a retail price of $1400. As with any product, ultimately you get what you pay for and with low cost come compromises.

The BMC cameras are not the end all/ be all solution for their market price range and will have little impact on the low volume niche market the D16 is aimed for. There are many considerations beyond superficial specifications that go into the personal choice of a camera. Black Magic is a mass commercial market oriented company, Digital Bolex is not.
 
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There is BMCC footage all over the web..plenty of people have it..

I was very much into the DB16, but have given up on it a few months ago..and I think the reason for that is because I knew (like many) about the product from the very early stages and the wait was just too long (which is fine because they are trying to get everything right), but it's just different with Sony, Panasonic and Canon when something is announced and definitely released (regardless if it's backordered, etc) just a few weeks/month or two later.
 
You can't compare the practices of well established multi-billion dollar conglomerates with the process a small entrepreneurial start-up must go through.

Sorry you lost faith NorBro, but impatience is its own reward. As Barry and many others have said, nobody should be waiting on any camera that is not available or scheduling productions around iffy delivery dates when the market is awash with readily available practical choices in the mean time.
 
Yes, you can compare and you should compare practices. Most of successful startups implement these practices, or they don't survive. Being part of two startup companies in the past (one failed, one was successful), I will say that there is very little room for errors, mostly due to cash flow. The reason BMD is so successful is that they are engineers first.
 
snowblindfilm said:
This is by far THE WORST approach to manufacturing electronics.
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They will be assembling the initial runs of cameras in the same way a production line team will assemble them when established, they are not building individual circuit boards, just doing final assembly. Again this is by design a low volume hand crafted camera. Unlike mass produced CMOS cameras, each one will be individually calibrated to adjust for minor individual variances in the sensors and processing circuitry so there will be uniform consistency in performance and quality. Any design issues with assembly and tuning procedures will also be modified for better efficiency for future runs. The cameras will be built in Toronto at least for the remainder of this year.

It is somewhat similar to the approach Red took with the early release EPIC-M.
 
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snowblindfilm said:
Yes, you can compare and you should compare practices. Most of successful startups implement these practices, or they don't survive. Being part of two startup companies in the past (one failed, one was successful), I will say that there is very little room for errors, mostly due to cash flow. The reason BMD is so successful is that they are engineers first.
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The process, even for BMD, to gear up for mass production for retail distribution is very different than the process for gearing up for build to order direct sales of low volume production products. It is an entirely different scale of business. BMD is not a boutique manufacturer like say Ikonoskop or Red. The D16 is not likely to ever show up in mass retail distribution and they only need to sell a few hundred to a few thousand a year to be successful at it.
 
as a owner of the only real comparable Dbolex product (A-CAM dII) and having personally shot BMC recently I will say the pocket cam shouldnt really be compared to the d-bolex. Yes its similar sensor size, but CCD is a much different animal in terms of end result in the look. CCD is not just good for global shutter but IMO it has the most natural/organic overall look. I recently shot A-CAM and BMC on the same project and the differences in look were quite astounding. I do love the BMC look, its just radically different.

On another note, after reading about the d-bolex delay on the quadrant sensor calibrating problems I immediately had a ikonoskop A-CAM DII delay flashback. Im no ikonoskop insider by any means but followed its development closely. I know that getting those issues worked out were MAJOR hurdles. Delaying A-CAM for a extra year at least. Even at its initial release it was some what of a issue. I think this could have much more of delay than people realize. I am still rooting for them because CCD cameras will be of high value forever because they are a dying breed. I personally would love to see them live on for more years of service.
 
I am still amazed at the sheer ignorance displayed by anyone who can assert that dbolex hasn't been forthcoming about their delays - let alone their development. Their website is dedicated to communicating just about every step of their journey. They have weekly stream casts where anyone can ask questions directly to Joe/Elle about anything. They have a forum that has seen hundreds if not thousands of questions answered, and is home to suggestions that have been thoughtfully considered and in some cases implemented into the design.

Even still - there seems to be a steady stream of snark aimed at them that reads like a bad after-school special on high school bullying. There's a lot of guys that think they're sitting at the cool kids table and it's getting old in my opinion. Check out the website and read the forum and take part in the stream casts. I doubt anyone who does can still say that DigitalBolex isn't communicating.
 
dustwaterwindfire said:
Yes its similar sensor size, but CCD is a much different animal in terms of end result in the look. CCD is not just good for global shutter but IMO it has the most natural/organic overall look.
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What do these terms mean exactly? I'd be willing to bet money that you cannot tell a CCD sensor from a CMOS sensor in footage.
 
Gary Huff said:
What do these terms mean exactly? I'd be willing to bet money that you cannot tell a CCD sensor from a CMOS sensor in footage.
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On direct comparison footage between the BMCC and the Ikonoskop, the BMCC shows chroma moire on fine patterns, the Ikonoskop does not. Both are very similar on DR but the BMCC has a small edge traded off against more shadow noise. The fill factor on the CCD is higher than on CMOS, so there is less potential for aliasing artifacts and the image has an overall smoother texture. No rolling shutter issues with the CCD. Very different color characteristics between the two. The CCD handles saturated primary colors better but is harder to grade. BMC does wonderful flesh tones, but at the expense of accuracy on highly saturated colors and it is far more susceptible to IR pollution. There is a slight but noticeable difference in resolution in favor of the BMCC. Motion quality is better for the CCD, it has a more dense and consistent image quality in motion than any CMOS camera under $20k.
 
Gary Huff said:
What do these terms mean exactly? I'd be willing to bet money that you cannot tell a CCD sensor from a CMOS sensor in footage.
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I know in a digital age its hard to believe GASP! that anything could look different cause its all just 1's and 0's! but remember CCD is a analog sensor while cmos is completely digital. Im telling you in a real world shoot , pointing both cameras at the exact same subject with the exact same lighting there was a huge difference in the end result. There just is. And to be clear I am NOT saying that A-CAM was better than BMC just different. I really love BMC in some ways that I dont love A-CAM and vice versa. But spec sheet (framerate, dynamic range, bit rate etc) alone doesnt tell the whole story when you are talking about different kinds of sensors.
 
But would you know, and more importantly, would you love, CCD over CMOS in a double-blind test? Confirmation bias tends to cloud this issue, in my opinion.
 
Razz16mm said:
On direct comparison footage between the BMCC and the Ikonoskop, the BMCC shows chroma moire on fine patterns, the Ikonoskop does not. Both are very similar on DR but the BMCC has a small edge traded off against more shadow noise. The fill factor on the CCD is higher than on CMOS, so there is less potential for aliasing artifacts and the image has an overall smoother texture...
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the chroma aliasing on the BMCC more a result of the fact that Blackmagic used a Bayer pattern filter without an OLPF? The Ikonoskop, on the other hand, has an OLPF. I don't think that particular issue (chroma aliasing) is a CMOS vs CCD issue.
 
Wesley Byram said:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the chroma aliasing on the BMCC more a result of the fact that Blackmagic used a Bayer pattern filter without an OLPF? The Ikonoskop, on the other hand, has an OLPF. I don't think that particular issue (chroma aliasing) is a CMOS vs CCD issue.
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Yeah, the Canon XF300 is CMOS and is sharp and extremely resistant to aliasing. I think it comes down to OLPF and the processing.
 
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