I have to agree that they just do not inspire confidence.
Bolex D16: RAW, 16/Super 16 sensor size, costs less than MkIII
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I have to agree that they just do not inspire confidence.
Where will the tripod thread be on the Digital Bolex? On the bottom of the pistol grip, or on the bottom of the body itself? If it's going to be on the bottom of the body, how will the pistol grip be attached in such a manner that it won't accidently come lose, thus causing the camera body to fall to the floor?
Pistol grip is removable from a shoe mount with a secure retaining screw, just like some Bolex film cameras, Bell & Howell 16mm cameras, Beaulieu's etc. Camera has the standard 1/4" and 3/8" tripod mount threads on a flat bottom.
The pistol grip design always worked pretty well for hand held work with classic Bolexes. Record trigger on the grip, one hand for the camera and one hand for the lens.
The idea behind the built in SSD buffer drive off loading to dual CF or SD cards ( don't know which they will finally settle on)is that data will be moved to the cards as you shoot, but camera performance won't be limited by card performance so you can use less expensive slower cards if you wish and modest cost media are available everywhere, even the corner drugstore.
The pistol grip design always worked pretty well for hand held work with classic Bolexes. Record trigger on the grip, one hand for the camera and one hand for the lens.
The idea behind the built in SSD buffer drive off loading to dual CF or SD cards ( don't know which they will finally settle on)is that data will be moved to the cards as you shoot, but camera performance won't be limited by card performance so you can use less expensive slower cards if you wish and modest cost media are available everywhere, even the corner drugstore.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Im just getting interested in this camera but..
XLR leads going straight into your ear is no good
Also no playback, that would mean no go
Using the SSD I wonder if a playback file could be written even if it had to buffer before displaying rather than writing it live..
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XLR leads going straight into your ear is no good
Also no playback, that would mean no go
Using the SSD I wonder if a playback file could be written even if it had to buffer before displaying rather than writing it live..
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An interesting tone developing in this thread. I can't say I never predicted that tone from afar...
I wanted to say something like this, but didn't have the heart. Good going Darren.
DBollocks... great stuff!
I wanted to say something like this, but didn't have the heart. Good going Darren.
DBollocks... great stuff!
I have to say that my immediate kneejerk reaction was similar, but at the same time I realize it's pretty ridiculous to base someone's potential success in a project based on how they look.
A bigger issue seems to be how they've been going around the country to all these different events, seemingly riding the wave of the community's good will instead of working on this product to make it actually useable. I find it especially off-putting that they keep showing off the "dummy" model, which has no internals.
Oh, but it will. Do you realize how slow Class 4 SD cards are comparatively speaking? Class 10 even? Shooting CinemaDNG Raw, the conservative estimate is about 8.5GB per minute, meaning that if DB has a 256GB SSD drive inside, it will fill up after 30 minutes of shooting. A qood quality SD card will get you a write speed of about 9MB/s. Meaning if you had a 256GB-sized Class 4 card, it would take 7 1/2 hours to dump the contents of that SSD drive to a single SD card. But I would guess the typical-sized SD card that most people already have is 16GB-32GB...let's say 32GB to be more generous. That would take 7 1/2 hours over 8 32GB cards in order to pull off 30 minutes of footage.
Let's be really generous. Say, those nifty Sandisk 64GB 95MBps cards. First, if a USB interface is used for the cards, you're going to max out at around 20MBps (that's as fast as I've ever gotten data on or off a card via USB). That means a little over 3 hours transfer time...not bad. If they can utilize the fastest interface and actually manage to get Sandisk's claim of 90MBps write speed, then you're looking at a more reasonable 45 minutes to offload the footage. That's still over 4 SD cards and that's a $600 (at current prices) purchase right off the bat to make that system even close to useable in my opinion.
Remember...that's for 30 minutes of footage.
That's why the BMD Jesus-cam's swappable SSD option is a much better option.
Jade Lane
Active member
Reading you're information above, if this is true it looks like we're gonna have to speak to Digital Bolex about swappable SSD's also, is that the only realistic working option for the D16 ?
It is the only realistic option for anyone who wants to shoot CinemaDNG. People used to H.264 or AVCHD (hell, even DVCPRO HD and AVC-Intra) are in for a tremendous shock.
Plus, let's put it into even more perspective. Right now, I can purchase a Crucial M4 256GB SSD drive for around $200 ($188 used, making it about $40 more than the Sandisk 64GB card). I could spend $600 just to be able to get 30 minutes of footage off the Digital Bolex camera, or I could buy 3 Crucials and have 1 1/2 hours of shooting time on the BMD Jesus-cam over 3 "mags".
Well, I could be wrong but I don't think either of these two is actually doing the work to create this cam. I mean, their work is to go to events and drum up support, buzz, raise money, etc.
The actual nuts and bolts of designing the physical body and the software is being done by companies they are paying to work on the project with the kickstarter money. Neither one of them is breaking out the autocad software to design the body, or sitting at the computer writing software. They're just telling the actual engineers what they want. That doesn't really take a tremendous amount of time.
It would be like Lance Armstrong designing a bike. he knows how high he wants it, what gear ratio he wants, the angle of the handle bars, what's the maximum weight that's acceptable, etc. But he's not going to actually draw and engineer the frame or figure out how to make the molds for it, or do the calculations for the stress loads, etc.
I mean this guy has designed a photobooth, but I think he just has enough knowledge to know what to ask for, not actually do the engineering for the camera himself.
I think what they did is go to engineering companies and said, this is what we want. How much would it cost to design that? What parts would be needed?
Then they went to manufacturing companies and said, here's the parts list for this camera we want to make, how much would it cost to crank out a few hundred of these?
They're gonna take the design from the engineers, and hand it over to the manufacturing plant.
I'm not sure standing around while the engineers are writing the software or the manufacturing plant is working on the molds for the body is going to make things go any faster.
Now the BMC guys are actually the ones doing the engineering for their camera so of course they don't have time to bebop around going to events.
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A lot of it is all about perception, Gillvane, and right now I don't feel they are putting out an attitude that they are serious businesspeople looking to develop a great camera. Couple that with some really oddball design choices and I wonder if the camera will a) ever come out and b) even be useable in any traditional shooting situation if it is.
Yeah, there's been talk of them being just representatives. Talk that they have nothing to do with the design at all. Talk that their whole "hipster" image is there to supposedly appeal to us indie filmmakers, and that the true guys behind the project are a bunch of huge nerds sitting in front of screens standing atop stacks of circuit boards with no social or marketing skills to appeal to anyone besides Karen Plankton. It's all here, in the thread if you look back.
But that's enough conspiracy talk from me.
Steve Jobs was just a design concept guy and "representative" for Apple too.
Complex products are not designed and manufactured by individuals. The DBolex is being developed by an international team that includes American design, Canadian hardware engineering, Gerrman and Russian software engineering, Swiss oversight and consulting from Bolex, and to date unknown far east manufacturing. All funded by the most successful Kickstarter campaign in history. This is not hipsters building cameras by hand in a garage.
Despite his appearance, Joe obviously has some serious organizational and management skills to ramrod all of this along with a track record of taking a previous photographic product from concept to sucessful completion.
I doubt Bolex SA would lend their good name lightly to such a project. Give the guy a break.
The D16 may be niche market camera, but at least it is designed with a clear and focused intent: to be a practical modest cost digital alternative to a 16mm film camera in form and function.
Complex products are not designed and manufactured by individuals. The DBolex is being developed by an international team that includes American design, Canadian hardware engineering, Gerrman and Russian software engineering, Swiss oversight and consulting from Bolex, and to date unknown far east manufacturing. All funded by the most successful Kickstarter campaign in history. This is not hipsters building cameras by hand in a garage.
Despite his appearance, Joe obviously has some serious organizational and management skills to ramrod all of this along with a track record of taking a previous photographic product from concept to sucessful completion.
I doubt Bolex SA would lend their good name lightly to such a project. Give the guy a break.
The D16 may be niche market camera, but at least it is designed with a clear and focused intent: to be a practical modest cost digital alternative to a 16mm film camera in form and function.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Joe looks like a sharp guy even though his taste in clothes is dubious!
He makes claims like - we can build lenses for half the price - those claims sound dodgy but there is serious techical foundation, lenses that cover S16 are comparatively small and simple compared to S35 lenses - easy to produce for half the price
I think S16 could very practical, not niche
The massive let down to me is no playback if that is correct - hipster filmmakers can do without playback, professionals wanting to check their takes before moving to the next set/location cannot..
Ive even stayed clear of Scarlet due to lack of audio playback (which I think is now resolved)
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He makes claims like - we can build lenses for half the price - those claims sound dodgy but there is serious techical foundation, lenses that cover S16 are comparatively small and simple compared to S35 lenses - easy to produce for half the price
I think S16 could very practical, not niche
The massive let down to me is no playback if that is correct - hipster filmmakers can do without playback, professionals wanting to check their takes before moving to the next set/location cannot..
Ive even stayed clear of Scarlet due to lack of audio playback (which I think is now resolved)
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Don't forget Bolex SA's involvement when it comes to lenses. They have a long history of producing excellent 16mm glass. A new set of digital Switars could be just the ticket. There are new manufacturing techniques that allow high quality lens elements to be precisely cast to finished shape rather than ground and polished from blanks. Significantly lowers cost. Modern plastic bodies as used by many still lenses also lower cost.
Placement of the XLR audio and power connectors is a valid criticism, but we broached that subject with Joe and apparently due to other elements of the internal board layouts it was not possible to place them on the right side, unfortunate. Right angle XLR connectors will minimize any issues though. The camera can be built up on a rail system to suit just about any ergonomic layout you care to think up. Having shot with 16mm cameras with handgrips like this one, I can say the ergonomics of that setup are vastly superior for motion to the ergonomics of an unrigged DSLR or the BMC. With an EVF mounted to the camera top shoe and a mic mounted to the left side shoe, it is a practical and comfortable hand held run and gun doc rig shooting off the internal battery or any standard ENG battery belt for external power.
Color monitoring and playback will come later with the add on SDI module. But this is video think. If you are a pro working onset with file based media, you review shots at the DIT station. This is pretty much how Alexa and Red digital cinema work flows go. Part of the intent of the Bolex is to provide a similar workflow to the high end cameras as a practical training tool for film schools that could replace their existing 16mm film camera inventory and still use their lenses and other accessories.
The software package that Pomfort is developing with the RPP raw processor modules will support fast 1/2 res one lights for review as well as maximum quality 32 bit float deBayer and transcode for editing. Pomfort's core software is a sophisticated DIT media management and backup package.
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morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Having a DIT station, securtiy of same, and paying/feeding/acommodating/insuring/flying a bloke or two to operate it, seems as about as far away from the cheap light indy, hipster freeform Bolex, ethic as you can get!
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The Digital Bolex dumps to SD cards and if they don't change that the camera is going to be a huge PITA to work with.