BMD 6K Pocket Cinema Camera

DLD said:
... the latest generation of smartphones are using the periscope zooms to deliver a level of performance deemed unattainable until only a couple of years ago. And this week, Xiaomi announced that they're working on a new phone with a 108 MPX Isocell sensor from Samsung. That's right. 108 megapixels...
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To slightly correct myself, Samsung officially announced this as ISOCELL Bright HMX. It's a 27x4 pixel shift and does 6K at 30 fps.

https://news.samsung.com/global/sam...trys-first-108mp-image-sensor-for-smartphones

So, 6K smartphones are on their way.
 
(halfway through the thread...)

QuickHitRecord said:
But is there any way that the rolling shutter on this won't be insane?
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Rolling shutter is actually pretty fast, see here.

Thomas Smet said:
Sensor is larger but it packs more pixels. In the end the pixels are likely the same size meaning the same sensitivity. In this case the larger sensor is there to provide more pixels and that about it.
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The pixels in the p6k are smaller than those in the p4k: 3.76 um instead of 4.63 um
 
Thomas Smet said:
While the prospect of stills kind of sucks on the BMD cameras my mind was just blown when I thought of what 4x3 now means on the 6k camera. 6144x3456 crops to 4x3 for 4608x3456 or the exact same 4x3 sensor resolution of the Panasonic GH4. Woah!

4x3 was abysmal on the P4k due to the 16x9 sensor cropping to such a dinky size but stills resolution for many print sizes is no longer an issue on the 6k camera.
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The issue now is that it's not a m43 mount anymore, and EF will make it more difficult to adapt anamorphic lenses. I would love it if they could give us a p6k with 1.55x sensor and m43 mount.

DLD said:
To slightly correct myself, Samsung officially announced this as ISOCELL Bright HMX. It's a 27x4 pixel shift and does 6K at 30 fps.

https://news.samsung.com/global/sam...trys-first-108mp-image-sensor-for-smartphones

So, 6K smartphones are on their way.
Click to expand...

It's not pixel-shift, it's quad-Bayer, which makes it even more impressive:
https://www.dpreview.com/news/07999...108mp-isocell-bright-hmx-mobile-camera-sensor
The thing I welcome the most here is a 1/1.33" sensor in mobile phones. That's a 3.6x crop factor, vs 7.5x in, say, an iPhone 8, and 5.15x in an iPhone X.
 
And now that I've read the full thread, my take on the p6k:

* It's awesome. Seriously: 6k S35 RAW with 13 stops of DR for under $3k. Unbelievable. Remember "3k for $3k"? XDDDD

* It's not for me: no DR improvement over my p4k, I don't need 6k, and EF mount and S35 sensor don't match my lens set (I have a set of vintage FF primes that are too long for S35, some E-mount APS-C lenses that won't work here, and some m43 lenses that won't work here; If you have the Sigma 18-35mm and a Canon 50mm, then you're golden, but that's not me).

* I fear the data rates: I just received a new 2TB SSD yesterday, my 256+256+128GB cfast cards are barely enough for a long day shoot on my p4k (I filled ~400 GB in an 8-hours shoot yesterday, and again as much today), and I'm using up backup HHDs like crazy since I got the p4k. Doubling the data rate would make all of this even worse. It's not just twice the money for the camera, it's also twice the money for the storage, and that's already running too high for my taste now.

* The best thing about the p6k is that it's putting a lot of pressure on every other camera maker. Bring out another 4k 30fps 8-bit body and we'll laugh you out of the stage.
 
Samuel H said:
... It's not pixel-shift, it's quad-Bayer, which makes it even more impressive:
https://www.dpreview.com/news/07999...108mp-isocell-bright-hmx-mobile-camera-sensor ..
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Recorrected.

I think the 48 MPX Sony sensor is also Quad Bayer. An important distinction from pixel-shifting versions.

Samuel H said:
... The best thing about the p6k is that it's putting a lot of pressure on every other camera maker. Bring out another 4k 30fps 8-bit body and we'll laugh you out of the stage.
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That's correct. Shooters may not toss out their Reds and ARRI's for the Pocket 6K but they might for the new 6K Sony/Panasonic/Canon "full pro" models that ought to be sold in under $10,000.

This was a subject of contention on the Canon threads.

Run&Gun said:
It's more for post. I believe 6K debayers to full(color) rez 4K.
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5.7 does and Pocket 6K has a 5.7K mode too.
 
combatentropy said:
What benefit is 6K to the audience?
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Same exact benefit of RED 5k, 6k and BMD 4.6k and EVA1 5.7k cameras.

1. Over sampling for a 4k delivery.
2. Enhanced color precision due to the typical bayer sensor color loss (every other color value is missing).
3. More room to reframe shots or for match moving VFX tasks.
4. Extra padding for stabilization so the 4k delivery can still have 4k of pixels.
5. It makes users feel all tingly inside.
6. Annoy the hell out of 2k fans.

Realistically the audience has absolutely no benefit to this at all. If you screened a movie in one theater to an audience with material shot in 4k and them ushered them into the next theater with the same material shot 6k not a single person would notice the difference. Even if the second screen had a 6k projector nobody would notice or care. In fact move them to a third screen and watch in 2k and I still doubt anybody would really notice.

The extra pixels much like shooting stills at 24+ MP or capturing audio at 24bits is there so there is more room to manipulate in post with a noticeable loss. Thats really it. Everything else is splitting hairs. Some editors/VFX artists will want the extra room. James Gunn loved shooting GotG 2 in 8k just to make is easier to paint out wires on rigs. The wires were more defined and easier to see to remove vs an interpolated mess or slightly darker pixels where a wire might be.
 
Thomas Smet said:
Same exact benefit of RED 5k, 6k and BMD 4.6k and EVA1 5.7k cameras.

1. Over sampling for a 4k delivery.
2. Enhanced color precision due to the typical bayer sensor color loss (every other color value is missing).
3. More room to reframe shots or for match moving VFX tasks.
4. Extra padding for stabilization so the 4k delivery can still have 4k of pixels.
5. It makes users feel all tingly inside.
6. Annoy the hell out of 2k fans.

Realistically the audience has absolutely no benefit to this at all. If you screened a movie in one theater to an audience with material shot in 4k and them ushered them into the next theater with the same material shot 6k not a single person would notice the difference. Even if the second screen had a 6k projector nobody would notice or care. In fact move them to a third screen and watch in 2k and I still doubt anybody would really notice.

The extra pixels much like shooting stills at 24+ MP or capturing audio at 24bits is there so there is more room to manipulate in post with a noticeable loss. Thats really it. Everything else is splitting hairs. Some editors/VFX artists will want the extra room. James Gunn loved shooting GotG 2 in 8k just to make is easier to paint out wires on rigs. The wires were more defined and easier to see to remove vs an interpolated mess or slightly darker pixels where a wire might be.
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So essentially, for most of us here, 6K is folly. Personally I think the hair splitting comparing 5.7K acquisition versus 4K for 4K finish is OCD with some very tiny hairs that most use to justify why they should buy the latest toy.
If I looked at the 12-bit RAW from my C200 on a big screen and saw it lacking, then 6K might hold some appeal, but the fact is, it looks great. There is the theoretical advantage, then there is the real world.

So for me, 6K would be much more of a negative than a positive. 8K, even more so. Shooting media, storage, backup, clones and the processing power necessary to deal with 4K is already too taxing in many situations. I've already had to switch back from a native workflow to a proxy workflow, that works fine
but the render outs to ingest 4K into Prores proxy are slow as hell, which is costing me time and money. If clients were willing to pay say a 30% increase in production cost as a line item, then 6K or 8K become very interesting as a business proposition. But we all know that in most cases, that doesn't happen.
So essentially 6K or 8K users are cutting their own margins to shoot and work with these formats. Why would I want to purposely decrease my profits? It's a business first and a creative outlet second, for me.

I won't deny that for a tiny percentage of working filmmakers, 6K and 8K could be helpful for VFX, but for the vast majority, in 2019, it's a nuisance.
 
Paul F said:
Thank you Drift. I was getting lost at the enthusiasm for 6k. I thought maybe I was missing something.
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But the reception is virtually identical to 4K - "Do we need it? Do we want it? Do have the funds to to pay more for it? - No, no, no. Oh, but what the heck, everyone around us is on the 4K bandwagon. So, off we go".

The high end has been 6Kaying for a while now with the Reds, Alexa65, Sony Venice. EVA1 has been 5.7K Raw for over a year and is on the Netflix "approved" list. The Pocket6K just takes the bang-for-the-buck idea two steps up. S1H should have 6K and reasonable AF on top of that. That's the current plateau. Not everyone will need it but it makes a lot of users appear in with the times.

Plus, if there's a new Canon/Sony/Panasonic 6K pro camera about to the released, it will close the debate for those involved in the higher tier production. To quote a pop'lar NFL coach, it is what it is.

Side note - I've not seen so many "unboxing and testing" videos in such a time frame before.
 
DLD said:
The Pocket6K just takes the bang-for-the-buck idea two steps up.
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Sure if you need 6K RAW and your budget is tight. This could be useful if you deliver in 4K, but if you deliver in 2K or HD then 6K acquisition might be over-kill.

DLD said:
S1H should have 6K and reasonable AF on top of that.
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Along with more dynamic range, Varicam color, IBIS for handheld work, a fantastic EVF, and possibly be weather-proof. ( I've read that the S1H side vent might be a radiator with no fan )
 
Vultch said:
Spotted a post today touting the Sony FS9 6k no other info.
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Just saw this on SAR. I don't think this will fit into the same category of the E2/Komodo/BMPCC 4K or 6K. Seems more like a FS7 repalcement.

I'm kind of waiting for the dust to settle with Komodo and the new E2's before I do anything. To me 4K 120 is a pretty important spec.
 
Unless you're David Fincher you don't need 6K or 8K ;)... And already I see some PK6k cams on Craigslist at inflated prices because they're already on backorder at BH/Adorama. Tired of this BS. Go out and make your movie with the gear you have. Seriously, audiences respond to emotion, great storytelling and characters. Not pixel count...
 
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scorsesefan said:
Seriously, audiences respond to emotion, great storytelling and characters. Not pixel count...
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True, but unfortunately, producers want the latest cool thing. "Full frame; I gotta have it. 6K? ... oh yeah, I need that too."

Speaking of viewers, I'll bet if I started making TVs that were vertical instead of horizontal, I'd sell them. First I patent it. Then ... "Now selling! An exclusive from Apricot, an iPhone compatible TV/monitor. Now watch your videos the way they were meant to be seen! No more black bars on the sides! Fill the screen with your latest videos!"
 
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