Blank-firing weapons - requirements

C

Cinderwolf

New member
I'm a relatively newcomer to the film industry, but I have every intention of leaving my mark (no matter how small it may be).
I'm also not 100% sure that this is the correct forum to post this in, but in all technicality, the props I'm speaking of are purely for FX use/purposes.

As far as replica weapons (i.e. pistols, rifles, etc) go, I know of many companies that you can purchase them from, although none ship to Canada that I know of.

As far as what would be required to legally purchase, own, and store both the replicas and ammunition, I'm more or less trying to figure out exactly what liscences and/or permits would be required to legally obtain these items.

I'm well aware that the FAC (Firearms Aquisition Certificate) is the base requirement, but I was sure there was something else (if not more). Or perhaps it might be simpler to apply/aquire a business liscence and then aquire the items? If anybody has the knowledge (or any ideas), please feel free to reply to this thread.
 
I own live firearms and non-firing replicas are not treated the same a firearms. This only applies, if the replica cannot be converted to expel a projectile. If it CAN, then it is treated the same as a firearm.

But that is for U.S. Google the Canadian gun laws and see what you find.

And then using it in public is a completely different issue. I hear about people in filmmaking forums saying that they went to their local police department and "notified them" that they would be shooting a film and firing blank guns just so the police "know that nothing is wrong". That wouldnt fly for a second in L.A. I dont know how it would go over in Canada.

My big question would be "Why a blank gun?". Why not an airsoft? (Although I think those are equally difficult to get in Canada.)
 
My reasoning behind the blank gun over an airsoft version is that I don't want to have to go through the extra craploads of work adding in the visual muzzle flashes (or have someone paid to do it for me).

As far as I understood though (and I might be wrong), a replica firearm designed to only fire blanks is treated the same as a regular firearm - although your statement makes much more sense (to treat the blank differently than a regular firearm).
 
Thank you for the link.. it didn't really help me though with my questions, but it was certainly an interesting and informative read.
 
You do not need any license (although you must be 18 years or older to purchase) to own replica such as airsoft (which as GageFX said cannot be converted to firing a real projectile). However the gun themselves are sold with a painted orange tip to distinguish them for real gun and it is against the law to paint over this (people do anyway). Gas-loaded airsoft version will recoil just like a blank shooting gun although there's no muzzle flash, this is probably the most cost effective way to go about it if you're looking for a realistic prop. Muzzle flash are easily added in post, all it takes is a bit of care.
 
I understand the laws on airsoft as I used to own a few myself. I'm referring to replica FIREARMS (just as the title of this thread suggests) - just like in the movies. The replica pistols and rifles that are designed to only discharge A BLANK ROUND (and cannot be modified to discharge a real round).
Not airsoft - I stress this. I know it may not be alot of work for some, but Adobe and/or other visual programs don't get along too well aside from filter use (which is what I intend to do on this project).
 
As far as what would be required to legally purchase, own, and store both the replicas and ammunition, I'm more or less trying to figure out exactly what liscences and/or permits would be required to legally obtain these items.
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In the U.S., it would take a valid government issued ID stating that you are 18 or older. I'm not 100% about storage issues, but I would guess that it is simply a replica, that there are no strorage laws, but simply safety guidelines.



I'm well aware that the FAC (Firearms Aquisition Certificate) is the base requirement, but I was sure there was something else (if not more).
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Again, I do not believe so. I dont know what you need in Canada to legally purchase live firearms, but I doubt that is required for a replica. It is not required in the U.S. for obvious reasons, but I understand that doesnt automatically apply to Canada.


Or perhaps it might be simpler to apply/aquire a business liscence and then aquire the items?
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Again, there is no reason for this.


I'm referring to replica FIREARMS (just as the title of this thread suggests) - just like in the movies.
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Huy and I have given you plenty of information regarding both blank firing replicas as well as other options. As far as "just like in real movies", what "real movie" are you talking about? "Hollywood" uses any possible tool at their disposal and this quite often means using airsoft. But certainly not always. Live firearms are also sometimes used with blank ammunition.


Huy and I have given you sound information and have answered the questions. If there is is something further, I suggest you contact the vendor you are looking to purchase from and ask their requirements for purchase. Also, maybe visit a local gun store and ask about your local laws. Considering your profile doesnt list a location, we dont know where you are, and I dont presume all areas of Canada to have the same laws.

Good luck on your film.
 
GageFX said:
As far as "just like in real movies", what "real movie" are you talking about? "Hollywood" uses any possible tool at their disposal and this quite often means using airsoft. But certainly not always. Live firearms are also sometimes used with blank ammunition.
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In the Film Lord of War they used real firearms throughout most of the film.

And in many movies they use live rounds instead of blanks but this is very rare and obviously never shoot at anyone.
 
Canada is sketchy when it comes to firearms. There are special permist one can aquire for filmmaking purposes. So if your going down that route, make damn sure you know what your getting into. I know that in Canada it is illegal to have any Ak-47 at all, replica, airsoft, paintball, nothing. Yes you can get them, but I wouldn't want to be caught in public with it. Google has alot of the answers you need. I am just much to lazy to go search for you.

GOOGLE GOOGLE GOOGLE
 
I'm not aware of any replica firearms that (1) cannot be modified to fire a projectile, but also (2) issue a muzzle flash out the end of the barrel. The very presence of a muzzle flash indicates a force of power going from the cartridge out the front of the gun. That in and of itself would make it capable of firing a projectile, since all it would take is wedging something suitable into the end of the barrel.

I believe (and others can correct me if I'm wrong) that Hollywood movies use REAL guns that are loaded with blanks, in order to achieve the muzzle flash. The rest of us play it safe and put the muzzle flashes in in post -- which, as has already been stated, really isn't all that difficult.
 
I was under the assumption that Replica firearms had plugged barrels. Meaning, f you fired off rounds from those replicas, you could see the action of the gun kick out the old shell and slide in a new one, but nothing comes out of the muzzle.

I would contact a weapons master or a pyrotechnics guy. Even with blanks, there is the possibility of projecting debris. Don't endanger your cast or crew to save a few bucks.

Leave the gunshots and explosions to the pros if you don't wanna composite muzzle flashes in.
 
I believe (and others can correct me if I'm wrong) that Hollywood movies use REAL guns that are loaded with blanks, in order to achieve the muzzle flash.
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You cant reduce what Hollywood uses to any one type. They use them all.
 
Brandon Lee was killed as a result of a dummy round. A dummy round is a round that looks like a live round but contains no powder and no primer. It is functionally a piece of metal that cannot be fired.

They wanted dummy rounds for a scene so that you could see the bullet through the front of cylinder of the revolver, but they did not have any on the production, so an enterprising firearm wrangler or prop guy took live rounds, removed the powder, then replaced the slug. The only problem was that this did not create a dummy round since the primer was still in place.

So at some point, someone pulls the trigger with the make-shift dummy round in place and it fires the primer. No projectile was expelled out of the barrel so no one thought anything of it. The only problem is, they took the next step in poor on set firearms safety and didnt check the barrel. If they had, they would have seen that the primer merely provided enough energy to dislodge the slug and leave it in the barrel.

For the scene with Brandon, they loaded up the gun with blanks and proceeded to run the scene. When the gun was fired, the blank load provided enough energy to shoot the slug from the "dummy" round, and that is what Brandon was shot with.

While it was a blank in use when Brandon was shot, it was not the fault of the blank. A blank, when used properly, cannot kill a person in this way. It's just that the blank and the poorly made dummy round combined to create a live round.
 
The responses by and large have been right on, with one glaring exception.

The bottom line is that nobody so far really knows the ins-and-outs of what is required to acquire and use a blank gun in Canada.

These people are quite knowledgeable - I believe they are listed in the "Suppliers" thread at the top of the forum:

http://www.iar-arms.com/index.html

They just might know something about Canadian rules, or may be able to point you to somebody else.

BENNILES- where in the world did you get the idea that LIVE rounds are used on a film set? Go back to whoever told you that and kick their azz. Anyone that brings live rounds onto a location or set needs to be dismissed on the spot - they have no business being there.

There is a separate discussion of using paintball guns for various FX - that should be the absolute limit on projectile use on a film.

GageFX- there are as many versions of the Brandon Lee story as there are story tellers, but yours follows logic and is in the same ballpark as the other prevalent explanations of that tragedy. The only variation I've heard, and it's open to debate, is that the weapon was used for live target shooting on an off day, and that the projectile in question that ended up lodged in the barrel was a "squib", or a dud round with a low powder charge. When they returned to filming the weapon was not cleaned or checked before using the blank rounds. I totally agree with your position on the issue.

I have always maintained that the person at fault was the armourer or weapons handler, who should have ensured EACH AND EVERY time that the weapon was clear and safe. I also blame the weapons person for the death of Jon-Eric Hexum, who was playing with a blank-loaded revolver between setups. The weapon should not have been left with him; it should have been retrieved by the handler. It doesn't matter how much of a "hassle" that is to do - no convenience is worth a life.
 
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I'm glad you came in. I qas hoping an industry guy would speak up.

Regarding The Crow, I will never know for sure, but just weeks after The Crow wrapped, I worked a feature with Sophia Shinas as well as a couple of stunt guys from The Crow. They were still shaken up and related the story from first hand knowledge. I dont pretend to no with all certainty, though.
 
The way I heard it was that they removed the dummy rounds, but that one of the shells (the 'bullet') came loose from the casing and remained in the chamber of the revolver. So when a blank round was loaded in behind it, it in effect became a 'live' round of ammunition. The charge from the blank propelled the shell just as it would a real bullet.

The point being that any gun that will expel a discharge through the front of the barrel CAN be turned into a lethal weapon, either accidentally or on purpose.
 
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And BTW, a blank by itself HAS been known to kill a person. I remember reading of a guy who, as a joke, put a blank pistol to his head and pulled the trigger. The force of the shot propelled a piece of his skull into his brain and killed him. This was (obviously) back when blank pistols fired their charge straight through the barrel. I would think with that kind of gun, putting it against a person's chest (or most anywhere else) and pulling the trigger would cause damage as well.

You're right that when used properly, such guns are safe. But people are notoriously stupid and like to clown around if they feel there is no danger. Education is critical.
 
Go with muzzle flashes in post. I have worked with blanks on set with a weapons supervisor. It is a very tedious process, with safety checks, the crew is on edge and most of the time the muzzle flashes were not big enough to really deliver the punch we needed.

A lot of hollywood films are even doing this now. You can custom tailor the muzzle flash for the effect you need and everyone is safer.

Do them in post. Your crew is safe and you will learn a new skill.
 
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