Jorn van Oostende
Active member
Looks to me he's taking cue from the director like a good camera op. should or did the producer just fire him(?)
BlackMagic - URSA Mini
- Thread starter Camera Expert
- Start date
BMD success has very little to do with marketing (which, I would argue, is only average). What Petty may have stumbled into was a realization that the photo-video market on the medium-to-pro half is horribly inefficient, with the Japanese conglomerates often protecting each other (to say nothing of the various cross-ownership of these conglomerates) to the detriment of the consumer. Products like the original 2.5K Cinema Camera, the Raw enabled Pocket, 4K Production, URSA and now URSA Mini were designed to heavily underbid the Japanese on the value - if not sheer performance - scale and often succeeded in doing so. What held BMD back in several instances was that its execution and delivery hasn't always lived up to its promises. That, by itself, is poor marketing.
At some point, naturally, the niches currently occupied by BMD will be filled up with models manufactured by the Big Boys. Nikon, Canon, Sony, Olympus and Fuji - in addition to the already present Panasonic and a somewhat fledgling Samsung - will then move into this entry ($1,000-$4,000) level 4K video market, with their production capacities and global customer support likely overwhelming those currently independent. GH4 has been out for a little over a year. I expect its exclusivity to end by the end of 2015, resulting in a free-for-all in the segment that is virtually competition free right now. And then, marketing alone won't matter a bit.
I don't see this.
It's not a niche, it's an IQ standard set by the highest end Sony and Arri cameras that pretty much only BM cameras comes close to - Nikon, Olympus and Fuji don't even participate in this part of the industry.
BM, from the outset, established an aesthetic that those corporations haven't focused on except for Sony and Canon on their highest model cameras.
BM did it initially (we're talking all of this in a tiny time span) with a couple of utilitarian/minimalist devices and quickly brought the aesthetic to more fully featured cameras (but compromising a bit on the original DR.)
Now in their third year they've resolved the two and are delivering the full aesthetic, with even broader DR and better color science, into even more functional cameras...while launching a couple of new little niche cameras.
The logical implication is that BM is in the lead if you're looking for the look of the highest end cameras from Sony and Alexa at an almost amazing price point (yes even fully rigged - I have several and they're still ridiculously cheap for what they deliver.)
I have cameras by most of the manufacturers you list - Sony, Canon and Nikon - and I only produce with BM cameras because I can't afford an Alexa and properly setup, these cameras get me closer to that look than anything from the "big boys".
BM is leading here in a very real way. They've owned NAB for three years running for a reason - no one else is doing anything like what they're doing.
And they're doing it really quickly.
I expect that's only going to grow, not somehow retreat to older, big corporate philosophies.
It really is a new era.
Andrew Stone
Veteran
I believe the previous two posts are closer in argument than their authors may care to acknowledge.
It will be interesting to see how this year shakes down with acceptance of the BM cameras. In the previous two years they have, in large measure, been shunned by camera ops that are higher up in the food chain but if NAB 2015 is any indication, if BM delivers on the URSA Mini, this WILL change. The number of people I spoke with this year who work with REDs and ARRI cameras on serious productions who were even discussing the URSA Mini in positive terms was astounding.
A lot of stuff can happen in a year in this industry from the users' perspective but it is often difficult to gauge until it has past.
And yes BM have owned NAB for the past three years at least in terms of "shock & awe". I actually thought this year, leading up to NAB, that they had run out of steam but my hunch was wrong.
Best to keep an open mind but also to wait until a product ships before jumping in with both feet.
It will be interesting to see how this year shakes down with acceptance of the BM cameras. In the previous two years they have, in large measure, been shunned by camera ops that are higher up in the food chain but if NAB 2015 is any indication, if BM delivers on the URSA Mini, this WILL change. The number of people I spoke with this year who work with REDs and ARRI cameras on serious productions who were even discussing the URSA Mini in positive terms was astounding.
A lot of stuff can happen in a year in this industry from the users' perspective but it is often difficult to gauge until it has past.
And yes BM have owned NAB for the past three years at least in terms of "shock & awe". I actually thought this year, leading up to NAB, that they had run out of steam but my hunch was wrong.
Best to keep an open mind but also to wait until a product ships before jumping in with both feet.
Andrew Stone
Veteran
A small reality check on the price of the camera as people are for the most part talking about how inexpensive the camera is.
If you buy the camera the way most people would get it you are talking about
$4,995 for the camera base
$1,495 for the BM OLED EVF
$399 for the shoulder mount/baseplate
$100 for the A/B or Vlock plate
So the price is a shade under $7,000 with the above
If you don't own a good set of ND filters you can add $300 to $800
If you want a mattebox for your filters add another $1000 to $3000
Other things you may need:
$300 Camera Bag
$1000 for a starter kit of A/B or Vlock batteries (could actually cost a lot more depending on how you go)
$1000+ memory cards (finger to the wind price, as CFast 2.0 card pricing is an unknown)
$1000 to $3000+ for an outboard recorder and media.
And there will inevitably be top plates and other bits that will come out that said buyer will feel compelled to purchase
I will asssume the buyer has the lenses they require to shoot with the camera.
If you buy the camera the way most people would get it you are talking about
$4,995 for the camera base
$1,495 for the BM OLED EVF
$399 for the shoulder mount/baseplate
$100 for the A/B or Vlock plate
So the price is a shade under $7,000 with the above
If you don't own a good set of ND filters you can add $300 to $800
If you want a mattebox for your filters add another $1000 to $3000
Other things you may need:
$300 Camera Bag
$1000 for a starter kit of A/B or Vlock batteries (could actually cost a lot more depending on how you go)
$1000+ memory cards (finger to the wind price, as CFast 2.0 card pricing is an unknown)
$1000 to $3000+ for an outboard recorder and media.
And there will inevitably be top plates and other bits that will come out that said buyer will feel compelled to purchase
I will asssume the buyer has the lenses they require to shoot with the camera.
Here's the thing. It isn't that BMD is making a series of cameras with the superior technologies to the Big Boys. In its base, a camera is a sensor inside a computer and the Big Boys already have superior sensors (and anyone can assemble a computer, allowing for a variety of the DSLR or camcorder shapes). And so, ask yourself why Nikon or Sony doesn't make a 4K internal model based on D810 or A99. If Panasonic can make GH4, LX100 and FZ1000, why is there no competition from anyone else in that segment from any other Japanese company? Surely, the technology is not a secret. Hardware can be off the shelf. Surely, if Samsung can deliver NX1 for $1,300 and NX500 for $700, lens included, the Japanese photo/video giants can do this as well. And not only can they do sub-$1,500 models, they can do everything between the most affordable to the very best. So, why aren't they releasing a truckload of models? Well, the only feasible explanation I can come up with is the cartelization of the Japanese industry in general and the photo/video industry in particular. In other words, as it relates to the 4K video, they are not making the product they can make and that creates inefficiencies that can be explored (and BMD is smartly exploring them).
PS. combatentropy is fond of hypothetical camera design but here's what already should have been on the market -
Nikon should already have a full frame 6K model based on D810 for about $4,000, a 4K full frame based on D610 for about $2,500 and APS-C crop 4K based on D7200 for the NX1 level $1300. And, if they don't want to do 4K internally, they can run the HDMI 2.0a out to an external recorder for 4K 60p.
And you also get the auto focus and a full compatibility with the Nikon lens lineup.
Panasonic should have AF200 with an interchangeble MFT mount.
Et cetera, et cetera.
Would these cams fly off the shelves?
Yes, it's called the big boy's controlling the market and the products they already have out in the different segments of it. Black Magic on the other hand has nothing to loose and everything to gain by listening to the people in the sub 10k market where there are many takers. I predict they will not only upset the market like Red did years ago, but dominate it in a couple more years as long as they play their cards right. I'm already starting to consider moving from Sony in the camera department and possibly from Adobe in the editing and color grading department to Black Magic products. Time will tell, but so far I'm liking what I see. Lets see how they do with customer service on their products as they gain more market.
I make films for a fledgling state university in California - in an interview, the university's president said that - because we are young and we are small, we can be nimble, we can develop new programs that a larger, more established university can't because they are set in there ways..
I think this concept applies to Blackmagic... It's an advantage for them to be the new guys. But, they are getting established now, and if it goes to their head is will be another Red.
I think this concept applies to Blackmagic... It's an advantage for them to be the new guys. But, they are getting established now, and if it goes to their head is will be another Red.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
And yet here we are still talking about BMD weeks after NAB and on top of that still talking about the photos on their website. This is where it works as a marketing tool. We are all still talking about them even though their cameras are months away. How many discussions do you see on here about other cameras? Yeah there is a rather active thread on the DVX200 but other than that this forum has almost overwhelmingly been about BMD. A huge part has to do with their products but another part has to do with their marketing approach. Not everybody will like the photos but it generates buzz about the company and another tool they use to stand out as being more cutting edge than the rest and not afraid to think differently.
Apple has some pretty cheesy photos in their marketing as well and it works well for them. Yes many will say its all about the products but it is also how Apple markets itself. Apple products are not always just used by teenage models and are likely to be used by fat middle aged men yet Apple markets with a certain sense of beauty. Anybody who doesn't think this method of marketing can be effective clearly doesn't work in marketing and that is probably a good thing.
Apple has some pretty cheesy photos in their marketing as well and it works well for them. Yes many will say its all about the products but it is also how Apple markets itself. Apple products are not always just used by teenage models and are likely to be used by fat middle aged men yet Apple markets with a certain sense of beauty. Anybody who doesn't think this method of marketing can be effective clearly doesn't work in marketing and that is probably a good thing.
Regarding Blackmagic's marketing photos, I think you all will enjoy this, if you haven't seen it yet.
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=7932040&postcount=117
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=7932040&postcount=117
Jim Martin
DVXuser Sponsor
A little of topic: every time I go to BM website it makes me laugh/cringe when looking at their product photosIt's one of the weirdest presentation I have ever seen. Models holding their cameras, grading etc.
For example this one (nothing wrong with this guy, he's just doing his job - modelling, but combination of him and camera...) :
View attachment 100588
Has anyone of you in entire career have seen cameraman wearing make-up?
Haha, Blackmagic, c'mon! This is so kitsch
I used to look this good...back when I had more hair!
Jim Martin
EVSonline.com
QuickHitRecord
Veteran
Hilarious!
They're not getting established now...only with their new cameras.
They've been established as a top software and hardware company at the highest levels for longer than RED has existed.
My studios have been filled with their gear for years.
They're new at cameras but they're a solid company with a serious track record in the professional film and broadcast industry - more-so than Canon for instance.
They've just taken a different approach to cameras than Canon would imagine
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Got it.
We're discussing the merits of a breakthrough new camera and you're obsessed with the people in the brochures.
Paul schefz
Well-known member
not sure i understand? i am generally not a fan of overly lit and airbrushed pics but that is pretty much any advertising right now? what is so dumb, stupid and silly about showing an idealized work environment? i would not mind working in that environment at all! or are you upset because it is so far from your reality? i don't see the average beer drinker in beer ads...especially light beers....
A little of topic: every time I go to BM website it makes me laugh/cringe when looking at their product photos
For example this one (nothing wrong with this guy, he's just doing his job - modelling, but combination of him and camera...) :
View attachment 100588
Has anyone of you in entire career have seen cameraman wearing make-up?
Haha, Blackmagic, c'mon! This is so kitsch
I used to look this good...back when I had more hair!
Jim Martin
EVSonline.com
You guys just don't get it!!! The clear, unmistakable subliminal inference is that purchasing and using the ursa mini (especially with the additional shoulder mount and viewfinder accessories) will cause you to look just like the model. That's why I placed my order! It's so simple!