Blackmagic Design HyperDeck Shuttle Video Recorder OR Atomos Ninja ?

But lets say the manifactures, gives us an hdmi output that can stream in clear 1080 60p same as the quality recorded in camera, will it be possible to have a Atomos or another hdmi recorder that could handle the 60p signal ?
Would it be hard to build an hdmi that could handle that ?
 
I don't think that Atomos will record a 1080 60P signal. 1080 60P is not currently a broadcast standard. So far as I know, you need dual-link SDI or 3G SDI to record 1080 60P.
 
arniepix said:
I don't think that Atomos will record a 1080 60P signal. 1080 60P is not currently a broadcast standard. So far as I know, you need dual-link SDI or 3G SDI to record 1080 60P.
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Yes, I know, that right now atomos can not handle it, but I am corios if they could implement something in it so that in the future could handle 60p. Atomos rep already told us that there is NO WAY that a firmware upgrade could implement 60p in the atomos that they made.....it requires creating-re-inventing the atomos...I am wondering if it is possible to buld in the future an atomos that could handle 60p, how much would cost and what should require.....

Thank you
 
It would probably cost about what a Cinedeck costs, or maybe an AJA Ki Pro. And it would need SDI.
 
arniepix said:
It would probably cost about what a Cinedeck costs, or maybe an AJA Ki Pro. And it would need SDI.
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The thing about the extra data rates is that it pushes all the limits such that you need to do it a different way rather than having more of the same. It's the same thing as the reason why you can't just make a Ferrari go at three hundred miles an hour just by putting two engines in it. You need a different type of device to do that sort of speed.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
 
David Shapton said:
The thing about the extra data rates is that it pushes all the limits such that you need to do it a different way rather than having more of the same. It's the same thing as the reason why you can't just make a Ferrari go at three hundred miles an hour just by putting two engines in it. You need a different type of device to do that sort of speed.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
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Are you guys planning to create one ?
Thank you so much.
Marco
 
David Shapton said:
I've heard from a customer that you can't get a clean HDMI output from the NEX5. I've looked at your YouTube link and that seems to confirm this: the only "clean" pictures appeared to be still captures that had been post-processed. So, even though it's closely related to the VG10 (which does give a very good HDMI output) it doesn't look like this little camera is any good with an external recorder. (Unless Sony releases an update!).

Dave Shapton
Atomos
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David: can you tell me what kind of recording I can get with the VG10 on the Ninja? (I know it has a 60i wrapper from a 30p capture.) I am learning on the VG10 before I get the FS100 and want to be sure the two will work well together (which Barry & you said would, but how I don't quite understand).
 
olindacat said:
David: can you tell me what kind of recording I can get with the VG10 on the Ninja? (I know it has a 60i wrapper from a 30p capture.) I am learning on the VG10 before I get the FS100 and want to be sure the two will work well together (which Barry & you said would, but how I don't quite understand).
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Yes, you'll get an interlaced recording that contains your original 30p material. This is because the two fields that make up the interlaced frame are both derived from the same progressive image. it looks and behaves the same as 30p - especially since everyone watches video on LCD screens these days.

And of course you'll bypass the internal compression on the VG10.

I haven't tried this combination personally but 1) every Sony camera we've tried works fine and 2) we've heard from several customer with a VG10 that it works fine with the Ninja

Dave Shapton
Atomos
 
David Shapton said:
Yes, you'll get an interlaced recording that contains your original 30p material. This is because the two fields that make up the interlaced frame are both derived from the same progressive image. it looks and behaves the same as 30p - especially since everyone watches video on LCD screens these days.

And of course you'll bypass the internal compression on the VG10.

I haven't tried this combination personally but 1) every Sony camera we've tried works fine and 2) we've heard from several customer with a VG10 that it works fine with the Ninja

Dave Shapton
Atomos
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Where does compression and interlacing/wrappers differ? I had hoped that the Ninja would remove the wrapper if it was uncompressed (sorry for this). I don't see the difference (blurry, like everything I try to see ;-)
 
olindacat said:
Where does compression and interlacing/wrappers differ? I had hoped that the Ninja would remove the wrapper if it was uncompressed (sorry for this). I don't see the difference (blurry, like everything I try to see ;-)
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Interlacing is not the same as compression - it's just a way to deliver a signal. In fact, HDMI (which carries the interlaced signal) is only capable of carrying an uncompressed signal.

There's really no need to remove the interlacing, because with 30p carried as 60i, it looks identical - you're still seeing the progressive image, but you can remove it in Post if you want to.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
 
WEIRD. Everything I've read about interlacing says it's a form of compression and all very confusing. Thanks!
 
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olindacat said:
WEIRD. Everything I've read about interlacing says it's a form of compression and all very confusing. Thanks!
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OK - I see where you're coming from now.

Interlacing IS used as a form of compression in the sense that it allows you to have a full 60 "samples" of a video image per second using the same bandwidth as a 30 fps signal with the loss of vertical resolution from each of the individual samples. But since we are only starting with 30 samples per second in the case of 30p, the fact that these are sent as two separate fields (with the even lines in the first field and the odd lines in the second) is actually NOT a form of compression because all of the original information is sent, and is fully retrievable without loss.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
 
David Shapton said:
OK - I see where you're coming from now.

Interlacing IS used as a form of compression in the sense that it allows you to have a full 60 "samples" of a video image per second using the same bandwidth as a 30 fps signal with the loss of vertical resolution from each of the individual samples. But since we are only starting with 30 samples per second in the case of 30p, the fact that these are sent as two separate fields (with the even lines in the first field and the odd lines in the second) is actually NOT a form of compression because all of the original information is sent, and is fully retrievable without loss.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
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I know it won't make my 'movies' any better, but thanks for clearing that one up! 100FPS.com and all the rest have been nagging at me..... So no way 24fps in Ninja or hdmi in Samurai then?
 
The Ninja can record 24fps natively, but no cameras that I know of actually output 24fps through HDMI. However, using compressor, or our own Stripper application, you can get genuine 24p from the 60i footage.

As I said, you only need 24fps if you need to emulate the "film" look or if you are going to distribute on film. If you're doing anything else, then use 30p, and, even though it uses 60i to transport the 30 footage, it it still looks like 30, and you don't need to do any reverse-telecine. 30p gives you better quality than 24p because you are capturing more information.

Just to confirm: the Ninja has HDMI, and the Samurai has HD-SDI.

Dave shapton
Atomos
 
Mr Shapton:

We have an F3 running on the AJA and I would like to put the Af100 on a steadycam.

My Dp insists on getting AJA Mini but the Ninja looks like it will deliver the same goods for a third of the price.

I am not a tech person, I direct, thus my DP out Jargons me every time but I do have a basic knowledge of the importance of 4.2.2 @ 10bit

Do you have any comments/advice for me?

Edit: To clarify: The Mini or Ninja will be on the Af100
 
Hi Wilbur,

I'm not going to comment on competing products but the second part of your second sentence may well be correct, although there are of course differences between the devices. We're getting great results with the F3 and the AF100.

Note that the output from most cameras over HDMI is normally 8 bit, but the Ninja encodes in 4:2:2 to 10 bits, which gives you the extra levels to work with in post.

Hope this helps. If you want more specific product-oriented advice you're welcome to PM or email me.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
 
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