thanks, for the excellent chart!
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Other: BlackMagic Cinema camera!!!! 2.5k for 3k...
- Thread starter Mickey G
- Start date
thanks, for the excellent chart!
Absolutely spot on!
I've been "making due" with a Sony VG20, because even a $5K camera is just too rich for my blood (esp given the now very quick turn-over rate with cameras these days). When you throw in a couple of batteries, various lenses adapters and the like, a $5K camera is more like $6,000-7,000. Considering the state of the dollar/economy, that's a huge amount of bread - heck, you can buy a decent sized house right now for $25,000 if you look around.
At $3,000 (with software and hard-drive), it's no wonder that this camera is generating so much excitement.
This has to be one of my favorite things about DVXUser. You get to know people over time enough to know where they are coming from. I'm glad you know that I'm not mocking in any way....genuinely....those are fair gripes. (If I had that much PL glass I'd be ticked for sure...lol)
I have to say that this annoucement has me MORE excited for these simple reasons:
1. Black Magic vs Start-up: Uh...ya. I'll go with the tried and proven organization...even if they don't specialize in cameras.
2. Sensor size: I don't mind smaller sensors at all. DOF isn't a big deal for me. All of that said, I sincerely mean it when I say that you've WON ME OVER. I really do like the look of M4/3 or there'round about. Enough DOF, not too much, easy to work with, easy to artistically manipulate.
3. Resolution and color-space: The extra pixels are going to come in handy for DR, color, even low-light performance. I don't expect it to do well in low-light at all...but it will do much better than DBolex.
4. "Extras" - Freaking waveform heaven, peaking, touch screen, SSDs, SDI, etc, etc
5. Industry leading Formats: DNxHD, ProRes, CineForm, and OpenDNG RAW. Geez...homer-ville.
6. Divinci 9 vs. We'll write something for you: Uh...ya, I'll take Divinci all day, every day...and twice on Tuesdays.
7. Delivery timeline: I hope the best for those folks at DBolex. I hope that they deliver "on time." I expect for these folks to deliver on time....if they are several weeks late, no biggie. I will be shocked if they don't deliver before the end of 2012. (MANY other "RAW" cine cams cannot say the same....)
I'll stop now cuz it could take all night! (lol) Bottom line: WOW!!!!! Our RAW-cine savior has arrived....Ironically? Poetically? .... wearing ALL BLACK!!!!
Cheers Barry! Thanks for all you do for our great community!!!
EDIT: Oh yes...one other thing. Black Magic's camera isn't a CONCEPT....it's already DONE. DBolex is on it's way (no disrespect here)....but, it is a group of drawings right now. DBolex is the "Belle at the Ball" at freakin NAB baby! Way to hit the BIG TIME!!!
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refocusedmedia
Veteran
Erik Naso
Veteran
Thunderbot is coming to PC soon.
If they did, they'd have two pre-sold here.
Argh those damn canon lenses needing an electronic interface to move the iris... How hard could it be to make a shallow flange universal mount that passes the canon protocol into an appropriate adaptor. There is an adapter now that can convert sony into canon, but that isn't really what we're talking about, simply plugging pins together like an extension cord. Most of the other lenses that people would really want to use can be used without electronic connection. I can understand Canon not making a shallow flange, as they are in the lens business, but BM just wants those users, surely a removable adapter would satisfy that market, and open it to more. I'd love justification to buy in to those m4/3 manual lenses, but the GH2 just isn't enough.
I'm with barry about the frustration of almost being able the use 16mm lenses, oh well. That being said, I love the look of the footage by Seb Farges on Vimeo, where he shoots with small format lenses and zooms in in post, resulting in roughly 720p, good enough for many applications. If this sensor is just enough smaller than the gh2, then maybe the zoom in to cover wont be as much, and the loss would be neglegable to all but the most ardent of pixel peepers. and If you start with the 2.5k raw... Count me in for a version 2 with a universal mount system. If I manage to get funding in place before that I may have to invest in at least a basic compliment of ef mount glass, I know where I can borrow exotic pieces from.
I'm with barry about the frustration of almost being able the use 16mm lenses, oh well. That being said, I love the look of the footage by Seb Farges on Vimeo, where he shoots with small format lenses and zooms in in post, resulting in roughly 720p, good enough for many applications. If this sensor is just enough smaller than the gh2, then maybe the zoom in to cover wont be as much, and the loss would be neglegable to all but the most ardent of pixel peepers. and If you start with the 2.5k raw... Count me in for a version 2 with a universal mount system. If I manage to get funding in place before that I may have to invest in at least a basic compliment of ef mount glass, I know where I can borrow exotic pieces from.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
How about an option to buy the camera sans the software say for example $2,000.00 or even $2,500.00. Would be nice for those who already use Davinci or other color grading software such as Scratch. We use Scratch at work and will soon use SpeedGrade from Adobe.
KyleProhaska
Veteran
OK here is a summary of my thoughts after being in this thread all day, calming down a bit, watching the different NAB videos, studying their press release and website, researching lenses and gear that would go with a camera like this, etc.
NOTE: I'm no big expert so don't take everything as gospel, I'm pretty sure I'm on point with some of the tech info but if I'm not don't throw stones
It’s an amazing announcement not even because of the camera but because of what this might do to push the other and bigger manufacturers farther down field then they think they needed to go. RED has already done that, but this announcement is on par with what RED originally did, simply because of the size/price.
The sensor is a little bit smaller then Micro Four Thirds (found in the AF100 / GH2) but the different is TINY. Crop factor is about 2.18 or somewhere around there when it comes to the FOV (field of view). You do need wider lenses in order to get the same wides you might be used to on a full-frame camera like a 5D, and that can be a challenge but there are lots of good choices out there like the Tokina 11-16. This sensor is bigger then Super16 and smaller then M4/3 so if you can get around the lens needs, you’ll be just fine. The DOF won’t be 5D-like unless you have a REALLY fast lens like a Voigtlander 25mm 0.95 or something like that but for many that’s not necessary. Indoors is the bigger challenge but outside you can also back up if you need to. Don’t forget 2.18x crop doesn’t mean it’s 2.18x the crop of 35mm cinema film, but 35mm still. The 5D and what you’re used to seeing with full-frame is 35mm still which is an insane size for a sensor. 35mm film is much closer to M4/3 then people think and the DOF and FOV is close. It’s not exactly the same but it’s close. The BlackMagic camera’s crop is about 15% or so smaller then M4/3 so it’s not a tragedy. Unfortunately because it’s bigger then Super16 (even if slightly) that means all Super16 lenses and things of that sort are out of the picture…assuming you’d be able to mount them anyways.
The rechargeable internal battery is the biggest bummer as it doesn’t look replaceable or swappable. This means that unless you’re hooked up to AC power somewhere, after 90 minutes you need to recharge before you can shoot anymore. The only other option is to buy a battery kit and that means support gear so those who are used to having their 5D/7D handheld will be out of the question unless they can rig up something. For those who own batteries like that already like V-Mount Anton Bauer or something like that, you’ll be fine as you’ll probably rig up the camera with a bunch of things anyways. Still that adds cost. However, for $3000 you’re getting the camera part and little else and that’s just fine!
NO word if they’ll make any other mounts available on the camera. EF and F mount seems to be what’s possible and even if it was EF only there are F mount adapters for EF. Again, the lenses will be the bigger challenge with this camera.
Internal 10-bit Prores is a joy as is the 2.5k internal to SSD. No HDMI out is a bummer since things like the Zacuto EVF need HDMI. That means you’ll either need to use a converter (which also needs power but with a V-Mount battery pack you can charge it all at once) or you need a monitor that can use HDSDI already.
Image wise things look decent on Vimeo. The dynamic range on paper and in the videos looks great. Low-light won’t be this products strength, but the Epic/Scarlet (not Dragon chipset) aren’t amazing in low-light either. This thing is far worse then RED in low-light or 5DMKII but it’s still decent. Audio inputs seem good with 1/4’ jacks although XLR would’ve been great. Anybody who wants to record internal sound will need the proper external box they’re used to using with their DSLRs or simply plug their mic into the jack. Not sure of the quality of the cameras internal preamp though so that’s yet to be seen.
I love the meta data functions it has which are very useful for post-production. The onboard monitor is SD so it’s not very resolute, but it’ll be fine for playback and shooting usage if you have to. I don’t like touchscreen but that’s just something I gotta live with.
I LOVE that it’s 3.75lbs. Some might not like that at all, but the fact it’s got some heft is a good thing. Some smaller DSLR’s are far too light and it’s difficult to keep them steady. The beefier the better sometimes when it comes to holding something steady even if it puts your arms/back to the test!
OVERALL I’m pretty impressed. What excites me most is what’s coming after this, because I could see this camera becoming the next 5D because of its price and features. Workarounds will always be needed for some things, but for what you’re getting this is a pretty great piece of gear. I’m probably still a fan of the GH2 over this thing, mostly because the RAW function of the camera isn’t something I would probably use much, and the GH2 is 1/4th the cost of it. We also don’t know just how sharp and resolute the image is of the new camera, so it’s yet to be seen if it can top the GH2 hacked. 12-bit and uncompressed means in terms of colorspace it beats the GH2’s rear end and a lot of other cams out there, but how the image itself looks isn’t yet known for sure. I can’t wait to see!
I figured to make a workable rig given the things I already have and some of the things I would have to buy…I’m looking at spending $5000+ to make the thing on-set ready. There’s no free lunch and no camera that out of the box will do it all. Think of it as the brain of the operation, and plan on surrounding it with great support gear and other things just like your DSLR’s.
Exciting times!
NOTE: I'm no big expert so don't take everything as gospel, I'm pretty sure I'm on point with some of the tech info but if I'm not don't throw stones
It’s an amazing announcement not even because of the camera but because of what this might do to push the other and bigger manufacturers farther down field then they think they needed to go. RED has already done that, but this announcement is on par with what RED originally did, simply because of the size/price.
The sensor is a little bit smaller then Micro Four Thirds (found in the AF100 / GH2) but the different is TINY. Crop factor is about 2.18 or somewhere around there when it comes to the FOV (field of view). You do need wider lenses in order to get the same wides you might be used to on a full-frame camera like a 5D, and that can be a challenge but there are lots of good choices out there like the Tokina 11-16. This sensor is bigger then Super16 and smaller then M4/3 so if you can get around the lens needs, you’ll be just fine. The DOF won’t be 5D-like unless you have a REALLY fast lens like a Voigtlander 25mm 0.95 or something like that but for many that’s not necessary. Indoors is the bigger challenge but outside you can also back up if you need to. Don’t forget 2.18x crop doesn’t mean it’s 2.18x the crop of 35mm cinema film, but 35mm still. The 5D and what you’re used to seeing with full-frame is 35mm still which is an insane size for a sensor. 35mm film is much closer to M4/3 then people think and the DOF and FOV is close. It’s not exactly the same but it’s close. The BlackMagic camera’s crop is about 15% or so smaller then M4/3 so it’s not a tragedy. Unfortunately because it’s bigger then Super16 (even if slightly) that means all Super16 lenses and things of that sort are out of the picture…assuming you’d be able to mount them anyways.
The rechargeable internal battery is the biggest bummer as it doesn’t look replaceable or swappable. This means that unless you’re hooked up to AC power somewhere, after 90 minutes you need to recharge before you can shoot anymore. The only other option is to buy a battery kit and that means support gear so those who are used to having their 5D/7D handheld will be out of the question unless they can rig up something. For those who own batteries like that already like V-Mount Anton Bauer or something like that, you’ll be fine as you’ll probably rig up the camera with a bunch of things anyways. Still that adds cost. However, for $3000 you’re getting the camera part and little else and that’s just fine!
NO word if they’ll make any other mounts available on the camera. EF and F mount seems to be what’s possible and even if it was EF only there are F mount adapters for EF. Again, the lenses will be the bigger challenge with this camera.
Internal 10-bit Prores is a joy as is the 2.5k internal to SSD. No HDMI out is a bummer since things like the Zacuto EVF need HDMI. That means you’ll either need to use a converter (which also needs power but with a V-Mount battery pack you can charge it all at once) or you need a monitor that can use HDSDI already.
Image wise things look decent on Vimeo. The dynamic range on paper and in the videos looks great. Low-light won’t be this products strength, but the Epic/Scarlet (not Dragon chipset) aren’t amazing in low-light either. This thing is far worse then RED in low-light or 5DMKII but it’s still decent. Audio inputs seem good with 1/4’ jacks although XLR would’ve been great. Anybody who wants to record internal sound will need the proper external box they’re used to using with their DSLRs or simply plug their mic into the jack. Not sure of the quality of the cameras internal preamp though so that’s yet to be seen.
I love the meta data functions it has which are very useful for post-production. The onboard monitor is SD so it’s not very resolute, but it’ll be fine for playback and shooting usage if you have to. I don’t like touchscreen but that’s just something I gotta live with.
I LOVE that it’s 3.75lbs. Some might not like that at all, but the fact it’s got some heft is a good thing. Some smaller DSLR’s are far too light and it’s difficult to keep them steady. The beefier the better sometimes when it comes to holding something steady even if it puts your arms/back to the test!
OVERALL I’m pretty impressed. What excites me most is what’s coming after this, because I could see this camera becoming the next 5D because of its price and features. Workarounds will always be needed for some things, but for what you’re getting this is a pretty great piece of gear. I’m probably still a fan of the GH2 over this thing, mostly because the RAW function of the camera isn’t something I would probably use much, and the GH2 is 1/4th the cost of it. We also don’t know just how sharp and resolute the image is of the new camera, so it’s yet to be seen if it can top the GH2 hacked. 12-bit and uncompressed means in terms of colorspace it beats the GH2’s rear end and a lot of other cams out there, but how the image itself looks isn’t yet known for sure. I can’t wait to see!
I figured to make a workable rig given the things I already have and some of the things I would have to buy…I’m looking at spending $5000+ to make the thing on-set ready. There’s no free lunch and no camera that out of the box will do it all. Think of it as the brain of the operation, and plan on surrounding it with great support gear and other things just like your DSLR’s.
Exciting times!
dustylense
Veteran
Not a chance. The other apps you listed is why this cam will be davinci packaged or nothing. They want you to use it.
CONSIDER THIS YOUR THREAD COMMERCIAL BREAK
I think many here will be purchasing this little dream cam from BM - but what to do in the meantime whilst waiting for it to come out? Well why not give your existing cameras one last hurrah??
Join us this year for DVXFest - WAR FEST!
Head on over to http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?280029-WarFEST-Official-Rules. Its free to enter and whilst its not the point of the fest - we're usually able to get our hands on some excellent prizes - who knows maybe we can talk to BM this year? Anything is possible in a DVXFest.
NOW WE RETURN YOU TO YOUR REGULAR PROGRAMME SCHEDULE - THANKS FOR LISTENING
I think many here will be purchasing this little dream cam from BM - but what to do in the meantime whilst waiting for it to come out? Well why not give your existing cameras one last hurrah??
Join us this year for DVXFest - WAR FEST!
Head on over to http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?280029-WarFEST-Official-Rules. Its free to enter and whilst its not the point of the fest - we're usually able to get our hands on some excellent prizes - who knows maybe we can talk to BM this year? Anything is possible in a DVXFest.
NOW WE RETURN YOU TO YOUR REGULAR PROGRAMME SCHEDULE - THANKS FOR LISTENING
I'm also a music producer. This is an absolutely pro input. XLRs would have been too much on a body like this...locking TSRs are standard studio connections as you point out...I have three pair connected with them in front of me.
Zephyrnoid
Veteran
You know. If I were at Apple, I'd be thinking in terms of acquiring BlackMagic right about now that would squash Google but good. What could be better than that 7"Ipad I've been dreaming up than an iPad on the back of a 2.5K camera ??? I mean, add ALL the broadband functionality of the tablet to this and next thing is a remote team is 'directing' . Gives me goosebumps just thinking of it.
that would squash Google but good. What could be better than that 7"Ipad I've been dreaming up than an iPad on the back of a 2.5K camera ??? I mean, add ALL the broadband functionality of the tablet to this and next thing is a remote team is 'directing' . Gives me goosebumps just thinking of it.
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
Is that 3.75lbs with the SSD inside?
Zephyrnoid
Veteran
Sure beats 1/8" mini
dregenthal
Veteran
What would make this a better camera (for me)?
I don't know . . . Maybe if it was free!
Dream camera? No, but awful close to it.
Considering the feature benefit vs. cost relationship it's a no brainier (for me) to be adding one of these to my stable.
Money doesn't grow on trees but given the reputation of BMD and the potential this puppy (or was that kitten?) has, $3000 isn't a lot for me to risk.
Thanks Black Magic . . . Where do I sign?
I don't know . . . Maybe if it was free!
Dream camera? No, but awful close to it.
Considering the feature benefit vs. cost relationship it's a no brainier (for me) to be adding one of these to my stable.
Money doesn't grow on trees but given the reputation of BMD and the potential this puppy (or was that kitten?) has, $3000 isn't a lot for me to risk.
Thanks Black Magic . . . Where do I sign?
snowleopard
Well-known member
The more I think about it, the more I don't think this camera will compete that much with DSLRs, or traditional camcorders. It will definitely siphon off buyers from those in the indie filmmaking world, but the camera seems to be it's own beast. Forging it's own path. I say this not just because of sensor size, but also features. I also believe a good deal of people who purchase DSLRs do so because of the still and video functions. Of course most people buy them for still features, first and foremost. So I really don't think it's going to put a huge dent in Canon's sales.