Black Magic Cinema Camera price drop: $1,999

Barry_Green said:
For all those like Z who insist that the cost of a product is limited to the cost of physically manufacturing the final item, just remind your agent that when you go to sell your screenplay, it only costs 85 cents for the paper you printed it out on, so be sure to turn down the $1 million they offer, because that would be, in the words of Zephyrnoid, FAKE.
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I think what ticks me off most about this forum, and with forums in general, and with people in general, is people who refuse to try to understand what someone else is saying. It seems the moderators of this forum are the worst of all. I have never ever ever witnessed more condescending speech than from some of the moderators here. Barry Green is probably the worst.

Do you think that Zephyrnoid is really that dumb? Or do you think that his argument is more nuanced? The cost of production of Resolve was not infinite, and for how many years has it been selling? Have they made back the cost of production yet, so that every penny beyond the cost of duplication is pure profit? I think that's what Zephyrnoid was thinking. But we don't put every last detail of our argument into every post, in the hopes that you all will get it, by attributing a little bit of faith in our brains, and to save each post from having to resemble some kind of document from a lawyer.
 
Kholi said:
Spent a few hours backtracking BMD's hardware release history. Google and all. I remember the Hyperdeck being updated swiftly after it was released, and a price drop on some other gear.

Basically, people haven't actually been paying attention to BMD. Me either, as I didn't expect two new cameras so soon. I don't think it has ANYTHING to do with a 5D Hack, so on and so forth. This is JUST how they operate: they update their hardware when they can, and as fast as they can and slash prices where they can. Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 HAD to have been in the works as soon as they released their first one, a lot of their production hardware got updates just as quickly, and price slashes.

The company just doesn't operate on the same wavelength that others do, for better or worse in some people's eyes. That's just my thought, feel free to leave it.
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Agreed, that's exactly what I think. They are doing things in a different manner.
 
combatentropy said:
Barry Green is probably the worst.
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When someone implies that the cost of intellectual property should be valued at the cost of replication, I get rather defensive about that. I would think any content creator would.

Have they made back the cost of production yet, so that every penny beyond the cost of duplication is pure profit?
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This would only be possible if they're not working on it anymore, not developing it anymore, not spending any money on marketing it, and not providing any sort of support for it. If they're doing any of those things, then they have ongoing costs. And without knowing what those costs are, or how many copies they're selling, then it is impossible for me, for you, for Zephyrnoid, or for Anyone (outside of the company themselves) to know what it really costs to put out each copy.

But, whatever. I've said my bit, you've said yours. Have a nice day.
 
I like how a company actually lowering prices evokes righteous fury from some. Usually it's when prices go up, but hey, I'm glad to know that there's absolutely no way on this green earth that no matter what you do - raise, keep the same, lower or give away for free, you're sure to infuriate somebody :)

I won't pretend to have a first clue as to what goes into pricing a camera, but I do wonder if there will be a v2 of this cam soon. I think the pocket and the 4K are here to stay and evolve (and new models come out), but given how fast BM seems to come out with products I am very curious to see if in case there is a v2, how it will be priced... the original $3K, or the new $2K? Maybe NAB 2014?
 
Gillvane said:
Black Magic has dropped the price of the Cinema camera to just 2k USD. This price drop applies to backorders.

The pocket cam is now shipping, but the 4k camera is still at least 4 weeks away.

http://www.televisual.com/news-deta...-price-drop-Pocket-Camera-ships_nid-3097.html
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It's sure awesome for those needing another camera system to add to their existing business or just starting a new production company/cameraman for hire etc.. Good for Black Magic for shaking it up within the market place too.

M.L.Pappas
http://PAPPASARTS.WORDPRESS.COM
http://TWITTER.COM/PAPPASARTS

[size=+1]BlackMagic 4K Digital Camera Info:[/size] http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.p...mera-Technology-Announcements-amp-Latest-Info
 
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Kholi said:
Spent a few hours backtracking BMD's hardware release history. Google and all. I remember the Hyperdeck being updated swiftly after it was released, and a price drop on some other gear.

Basically, people haven't actually been paying attention to BMD. Me either, as I didn't expect two new cameras so soon. I don't think it has ANYTHING to do with a 5D Hack, so on and so forth. This is JUST how they operate: they update their hardware when they can, and as fast as they can and slash prices where they can. Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 HAD to have been in the works as soon as they released their first one, a lot of their production hardware got updates just as quickly, and price slashes.

The company just doesn't operate on the same wavelength that others do, for better or worse in some people's eyes. That's just my thought, feel free to leave it.
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People just can't believe that a company might actually want something else other then every $ they can get.

People cry foul over "camera crippling" and pricing and now someone comes along with a BA camera and drops it $1,000 and people can't give them any points. Sigh...
 
Can anyone chime in on real world shooting cost with this and the pocket cam? I realize lenses are all over the place on that respect but what else would one need to have a simple (ENG) shooting kit? Viewfinder? Media? Batteries? External audio recorder? What doesnt it come with that it needs, and how much do those things cost, other words?
 
combatentropy said:
Do you think that Zephyrnoid is really that dumb? Or do you think that his argument is more nuanced? The cost of production of Resolve was not infinite, and for how many years has it been selling? Have they made back the cost of production yet, so that every penny beyond the cost of duplication is pure profit? I think that's what Zephyrnoid was thinking. But we don't put every last detail of our argument into every post, in the hopes that you all will get it, by attributing a little bit of faith in our brains, and to save each post from having to resemble some kind of document from a lawyer.
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Yes. As you say. With 35 forums to attend, you can imagine the number of posts...
Further. The point carries to all software. Once initial investment has been recovered its pure profit there after. For crowd funded or other VC funded software, investors often take write downs for R&D so the 'cost' factor is pretty much myth :-)
 
PappasArts said:
It's sure awesome for those needing another camera system to add to their existing business or just starting a new production company/cameraman for hire etc.. Good for Black Magic for shaking it up within the market place too.
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Yes, I almost bought a BMCC MFT when the Pockets were announced. I ordered 2 pockets. Typically on many of my interview shoots I use 2 or 3 cameras now.
Most of my subjects are business people and they don't have time to keep re-doing things. Plus editing interviews with only one
camera angle or view can get frustrating. I have been using 2 GH2's and I am getting good results. I have been looking a the BMCC side it came out.
So dropping from $3,000 to $2,000 is nice but in the overall scheme of things it won't change my life.
I know I will notice the difference in the footage. I doubt many of my clients will.
 
Zephyrnoid said:
Yes. As you say. With 35 forums to attend, you can imagine the number of posts...
Further. The point carries to all software. Once initial investment has been recovered its pure profit there after. For crowd funded or other VC funded software, investors often take write downs for R&D so the 'cost' factor is pretty much myth :-)
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Your point of view is valid if a business were a closed loop system. They are not. The cost of labor in any business is usually it's biggest outlay. Add, taxes, insurance, R&D, rent, mortgages, inventories, shipping, theft, employee theft, litigation, advertising, etc and your "profits" can be eaten up quickly. Plus in America's current burden of regulation and over burdensome laws…..it's not easy to protect or project "profits".
I was running a video production business that had 15 employees in June of 2001…..I saw the handwriting on the wall….the internet was taking off and many companies had gone in-house with their productions.
In July of 2001 - I fired everyone - sold what I could and took my edit bay home. 2 months later - 9-11…..What clients I had pulled the plug on everything for months….if I still had all of my employees and overhead I would have been ruined….probably would have had to declare bankruptcy. As it was - it still took me about 7 years to pay off my debts. So when you say that a company has "pure profit". You don't know what you are talking about. And not everyone is rich enough to take "write downs"…..
 
Zephyrnoid said:
Once initial investment has been recovered its pure profit there after.
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Except just running a big company constantly bleeds money. You think they just make the software quickly with a couple of guys in a couple of months, fire those guys off and profit?
 
Jim Martin said:
Quite simply, when they announced the new 4K cinema camera, they effectively killed the previous model. Who wants to buy the previous unit when a new one is coming at close to the same price. I'm sure they were people still waiting for delivery who cancelled their orders and put in for the new one so BM still has stock around that they need to sell/move...and that is why they are now lowering the price.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com
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Could have been more obvious than that? Why does it has to be more complicated?
However, if I had paid 3000$ to get one just before the lowering of the price...I would be in depression now....
 
maarek said:
Except just running a big company constantly bleeds money. You think they just make the software quickly with a couple of guys in a couple of months, fire those guys off and profit?
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And later re-hire that crew when they have an idea for a new version or other product .... if the programmer guys have not meanwhile more reliable jobs as cab-drivers or hot-dog vendors.
 
KyleProhaska said:
People just can't believe that a company might actually want something else other then every $ they can get.

People cry foul over "camera crippling" and pricing and now someone comes along with a BA camera and drops it $1,000 and people can't give them any points. Sigh...
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They are not lowering the price to "give back" or to support indie film makers, or because they are saints and angels, or because they don't want money, or because it's about the art of film making not "greed" for them, or any such drivel. They are lowering the price to gain market share which will make them MORE money in the long run if they are successful.

Right now the big camera companies have 99.9% market share and if BMC wants to be successful in the camera biz they have to take some of that market share for themselves. You do that by lowering prices until you build up demand. I know it's a difficult concept for some, but you make more money by charging less for your product when you need to gain market share in a particular segment of the market.
 
combatentropy said:
I think what ticks me off most about this forum, and with forums in general, and with people in general, is people who refuse to try to understand what someone else is saying. It seems the moderators of this forum are the worst of all. I have never ever ever witnessed more condescending speech than from some of the moderators here. Barry Green is probably the worst.

Do you think that Zephyrnoid is really that dumb? Or do you think that his argument is more nuanced? The cost of production of Resolve was not infinite, and for how many years has it been selling? Have they made back the cost of production yet, so that every penny beyond the cost of duplication is pure profit? I think that's what Zephyrnoid was thinking. But we don't put every last detail of our argument into every post, in the hopes that you all will get it, by attributing a little bit of faith in our brains, and to save each post from having to resemble some kind of document from a lawyer.
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Read some of Zephyrnoid's posts in other threads. The picture he paints of himself, at least in my opinion, is that of someone who believes companies are basically in business to scam their customers/suckers. His post in this thread was a great example:

Zephyrnoid said:
Sadly it's a higher ratio but who's going to admit to that? With BMCC the big hook was Davinci Resolve, a $0.50 software duplication valued at $1000. FAKE
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Having said that, like everyone here he sometimes has some good points to make. This just wasn't one of them. FAKE, all in caps. Not really a nuanced arguement.

I'm not a big fan of his opinion that consumers are basically suckers that let companies manipulate:

Zephyrnoid said:
The vast majority of Consumer and lower level 'Pro-sumer' electronics including cameras, mobile handheld devices and anything that refreshes in less than 4 years are basically consumer subsidized 'public beta'. I'd go as far as to state that ANY device that cannot be upgraded falls under this rubric.
This comes from my experience developing software. We joked that our companies were earning money twice. Once when a consumer buys our products and the second time when we right-off the development costs on our taxes as 'R&D' or 'loss leaders'.
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He goes on....

Zephyrnoid said:
What annoys the heck out of me is that the more that consumers continue to subsidize the betas, the more willing that manufacturers are to continue spitting them out.
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And of course, I'm not big on his view of Americans....

Zephyrnoid said:
America taught Japan to be greedy and release products as soon as they contained INCREMENTAL improvements.
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But my favorite was this.....

Zephyrnoid said:
Americans are addicted to toys and gadgetry. Without this fact, Asia would starve. Americans MUST have a new wardrobe every season, without this, China and Goodwill would starve !
Thank goodness cars are still expensive enough or we'd be buying a new one EVERY YEAR and Asia would never be able to keep up with demand LOL !!!!!!!
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Honestly, I'm not sure he really does nuance. Still he does make some of the threads more interesting.
 
Really, how is this not just a good evolution in a rapidly evolving camera landscape?
Aside from the moire issue, having two cameras with the IQ of the BMC and BMPC is great...that you can buy a pair of them for $3K is really, really great.

Personally, for the way we produce I'm still liking the BMPC as a new addition because of the ergonomics and battery and active MFT.
Now that I've added an MFT lens kit to our package, I can see the Zuiko 12mm on the Pocket Camera most of the time as a relative 35mm perspective.

It's all good, unless you just like to complain.
 
Gillvane said:
They are not lowering the price to "give back" or to support indie film makers, or because they are saints and angels, or because they don't want money, or because it's about the art of film making not "greed" for them, or any such drivel. They are lowering the price to gain market share which will make them MORE money in the long run if they are successful.

Right now the big camera companies have 99.9% market share and if BMC wants to be successful in the camera biz they have to take some of that market share for themselves. You do that by lowering prices until you build up demand. I know it's a difficult concept for some, but you make more money by charging less for your product when you need to gain market share in a particular segment of the market.
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^ That. Except, lowering your prices is not good enough in most cases: you also need to have a good-enough product, otherwise people won't want it even if you're selling it at a loss. But in broad terms, yes, it's just a sign that they care about their long run profits.

And BTW, availability update: at the moment of the announcement, BH had both the EF and MFT versions in stock; after they changed the price, they remained so for some time, but right now only the EF version is in stock, the MFT is stated as "usually ships in 7-10 business days"
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/searc...&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=
 
I have to agree with @Gillvane

It is basic economic strategy. The idea is BMD cameras requires to be synonym with the Film Industry before they can play around with higher margin. It is pure basic Economics 101. And of course right now they are doing it in correctly despite all the bashing due to the late delivery of the BMPC and BMC4K.
 
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