Black Hawk Down & Saving Private Ryan

G

Gordon JL

Well-known member
So I got into this argument over the similarities between Black Hawk Down and how Saving Private Ryan had a big influence on it in terms of style in general and also visual style. I was arguing that there were not too many similarities; but the other guy was stating that SPR did have a big influence on BHD's style. A lot of the argument resulted in me describing the differences between the two films, which he did not dispute, instead of me arguing against the similarities that he had brung up. I don't know too much about war films, so I'm looking to find out different views on this topic. There is a general consensus that Saving Private Ryan sort of revolutionized the war genre. Would you guys argue that there is a notable degree of similarities between SPR and BHD in terms of style, and that BHD was largely influenced by SPR? Were there films before SPR, released in 1998, having such a high-degree of immersion, realism, and gore, or did SPR pretty much introduce a lot of that into the film genre? If SPR did not exist, and Ridley Scott decided to direct BHD, would it be very different from what it is today? What do you guys think about the differences, and more importantly, the similarities and the degree of similarity between the two films?

In hindsight, I do think the similarities he had brung up are there. I don't know, maybe I was wrong to disagree with him the large influence SPR had on BHD (style-wise). Both films are riveting -- I found myself highly immersed in the action, more so than a lot of other films I have seen, pre-Saving Private Ryan.

When I say style, I mean everything from the feel, the tone, to the way the shots were composed.
 
I think SPR was very revolutionary. I believe that Spielberg and his DoP drew there influence from real war-time footage. Since SPR, 70%(ish) of action scenes use narrow shutter angles, and bleach bypass process has become very cool.

Spielberg started his handheld craze with Schindlers list, however, that style has been around a long time. You can see it in films since about 1950s, maybe earlier. Folk like Godard made the whole hand held thing cool in the 60's.
 
These are 2 of my favorite films. I love War Movies and dream of making one one day.

I have to think that BHD was inspired by SPR. How can it not have been? SPR literally changed the way films are made. It changed the way action films are shot and re-invented the war genre.
 
i dont think they are similar at all. I mean, they are both combat movies, so of course you make a long list of similarities, but stylisticly they are completely different.

I dont really like BHD, which is weird since i bought the 3-disc anyway, but the two main differences between the 2 are names Scott and Brukheimer(sp?). First of all I think Brukheimers influence seeping in contaminated BHD just enough to leave a nasty after taste for me. Bruks asides, Scott PRETTY much did his Scott thing, which is usually good, but after SPR I've been spoiled. If a combat movie doesnt have that gritty realism and immersion, i have a hard time getting involved.

Scott, like always, tried to tell the story though the camera, with camera angles, color, slow motion, the way I prefer EVERY OTHER genre be approached (why he's one of my favorite directors) but when i watch it (besides rolling my eyes whenever i see brukee dip his fingers in it) i basically think, well its no SPR.

Only thing to come close for me was Band of Brothers, of coarse, lol
 
Similar? Yes and no.

The use of color is definitely different. BHD used a very saturated gritty look - just the opposite of SPR which was bleach bypass.
 
The thing that seems to set apart war movies for me now is the team-acting ability of the charactors. With SPR and Band Of Brothers, any movie production that doesn't physically abuse it's actors with a pre-production-bootcamp just isn't serious. Case in point, "Wind Talkers." Argh. What a POS. There was a movie with high potential, and a really great director, John Woo. the opening scene made me yell, "John Woo, WTF?!"
Nothing looked or felt authentic.

Loved BHD. Again- excellent team-movement- authentic -looking as hell.
SPR raised the bar on a number of levels.

My two cents,

Jeff Patnaude
 
John Woo never made anything look authentic, his films are about action ballet. They are really more of a dance. That said- Windtalkers is a POS.
 
Captain Dale Dye's importance towards the success of SPR, Platoon, BoB etc should not be underemphasised. He rocks, and picks up on a lot of little details that ruin other films. I don't believe you can make a good film about something that you don't understand.
 
I can't stand John Woo. His action scenes are big-budget A TEAM episodes.

How many times does John Woo have the guy 'Fly up' out of the explosion in Slow Motion? Horrible filmmaker and I can't believe this guy has a following or is considered cool.

Windtalkers sucked big time. Almost comical action sequences. The opening sequence alone was horrible and had Woo's stamp of crap all over it.

I remember reading about the actors in SPR 'Whining' about the bootcamp and wanting to quit at one point; and it was like only a 2 week course! What a bunch of nancies.

Dale Dye is cooler than ****; here is his site

http://www.warriorsinc.com/

His turn in Platoon is a nice one "If I find out there was an illegal killing; there will be a court martial!"
 
I am with John 100% on all that. I also think Woo sucks. I have a lot of oriental friends who used to show me all his older Hong Kong films and couldn't understand why I didn't love them. I hate every film of his I have seen. The one he did for www.bmwfilms.com is his "best" IMHO. No substance and a lot of horrible style.

John, do you also play "spot the Capt Dye?" I love his performances in SPR, Band of Bros, Mission impossible 1(&2 I think), Casualties of War (HATE the film though), Starship Troopers, JFK, and all his roles in Platoon.

Dye rocks, definitely cooler than ****.
 
How do people feel about comparing SPR and Platoon? Sorry for the thread highjack!

Imagine the substance of Platoon with the visual and audio style of SPR...hmmmm...
 
John_Hudson said:
Thats too funny. I also think HOSTAGE is his best work.

WOO Sucks.

Yes; I do play spot the Dye. hahaha!
Click to expand...

Great minds think alike :thumbsup:

I reckon you would be interested in a WW2 script I am working on. I could send it to you if I ever finish it.

Are you a Where Eagles Dare fan?
 
I was let down on the action sequences in Platoon - but then again I saw it after seeing films like SPR and BHD. I loved the story though. I just really wish the action sequences didn't look like a bunch of asian guys in the woods shooting fireworks at the camera - if I wanted to see that I could go on ebaumsworld.

There was a kid I knew in school who would always bring in shitty Woo movies - like Faceoff or something. God. Action cannot replace plot. Sorry.

Woo: Ok, so in this scene you're going to ride on a motorcycle, without a helmet, and idle on only the front wheel. Also you won't have your hands on the handles, but you'll be shooting - with 2 pistols no less!

Tom: Wait, 2 pistols? But I...

Woo: Don't worry - it's art!

Tom: Oh... ok...

(reference to Mission Impossible 2)

Jesus Christ - why does everybody say this guy is the ****? WHY? Godamn, he has about as much style as an elephant on a DDR machine - which isn't a very good simile, but you get the idea. All the slowmotion in fight scenes is annoying as hell too. I don't want to watch a goddamn ballet you stupid **** I want to see people getting killed. Jesus.

If I were a steak and Woo was cutting me up and eating me, I would lodge myself in his throat, making him cough. Maybe even choke to death.
 
You know, you guys are right. Woo never really made anything I like.
"Face Off" - more like Jerk Off.
Broken Arrow? Yikes.

Capt Dye was also great in Band Of Brothers. I liked his charactor acting before I knew he was doing the consulting work.
Both thumbs way up.

Jeff Patnaude :thumbsup:
 
I don't think SPR had that much to do with BHD's style at all.

If you look at G.I. Jane, made before SPR, Ridley was already going down that road. Sure, SPR influenced some films more than others, but I don't think it is the case with BHD's style.

How many different style's can you film high-adrenaline land combat in? Especially in the late 1990's?
 
You guys are forgetting that without Woo, their wouldn't be no Robert Rodriguez, no Luc Besson, no Crouching Tiger, etc.

He opened the door for a lot of new people and styles to get to Hollywood.

I agree that his new stuff sucks donkey schlong, but his pre-Hard Target movies were not bad for the time when they were released.
 
mmm said:
Great minds think alike :thumbsup:

I reckon you would be interested in a WW2 script I am working on. I could send it to you if I ever finish it.

Are you a Where Eagles Dare fan?
Click to expand...

Platoon in the vien of SPR; heeelll yeesssss. In fact; now that I think about it. Has there beena Vietnam made film wit hthis style? I don't think so; WW2 has kind of dominated the war map since 1998. (Pearl Harbor was laughable although the impressive Attack Sequence I loved if a bit too 'Bay Buck'. Can you imagine a Vietnam film today with the new styles? Time for that "Tet Offensive" film I always wanted to tell! :shocked: I liked Mel Gibson in WE WERE SOLDIERS. That's a good Vietnam film with some crazy war scenes

Where Eagles Dare? I love it. Havent watched it in years but I love it. Also a fan of:

The Guns of Navarone
Force 10 From Navarone (Yes even this one)
The Great Escape
The Longest Day
Sands of Iwo Jima

MMM - I'd love to check out the script; PM if you want!

MONTE

You're cracking me up. I feel the same way; his films are such bullshit. I mean people actually think Broken Arrow was a good movie; can you believe that?

I cannot wait for Tarantinos INGLORIUS BASTARDS
 
John, check out Tigerland if you haven't seen it. It isn't really a "war" film, as they never get to Vietnam. It was shot on S16 I believe and is very documentary-like.

Schumacher and Colin Farrell at their bests IMO.

I'll let you know when I get the script done. Don't hold your breath; it is one of those back-burner projects... you know, the ones that take years!
 
Question:

Someone stated that SPR was revolutionary, how? What about it was so radical that it turned filmmaking on its head or war films or cinematography upside down?


In Response:

Woo doesn't impress me. I think his style may attract young teens. I don't really like Robert Rodriquez. He last Mariachi movie (once upon a time... sucked eggs). That movie was so bad I almost puked.

Okay I'm exaggerating, but it was so bad, and his cooking on the bonus features (dvd) was stupid.
 
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