Big budget shoots using sunlight

S

sonofaresiii

Well-known member
This is something that's always bugged the heck out of me...
Sunlight is beautiful. We all know that. And if I'm shooting outside, I have the opportunity to use sunlight and reflectors to get a really stunning image... there's a lot more than just "letting the sun do its thing," such as choosing when to shoot, placing actors, etc.

But...

It seems like every low-budget shoot that shoots outdoors all get approximately the same look, and beautiful as it is... it's never quite as good as what I see in big budget movies set outdoors, even if the lower budget has a talented DP. With interiors, I understand the big budget guys have far better instruments that equate to that better look, but what are they doing outside that looks better? Are they secretly blasting diffused HMIs running off generators onto the actors? Or is it more about professional color grading?
 
Yes, we use big HMIs on day exteriors all the time. Also really big bounces and diffusion overhead. Old Sol is a hard source and must be tamed, but it isn't easy - sunny day exteriors are big grip days.
 
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sonofaresiii said:
This is something that's always bugged the heck out of me...
Sunlight is beautiful. We all know that. And if I'm shooting outside, I have the opportunity to use sunlight and reflectors to get a really stunning image... there's a lot more than just "letting the sun do its thing," such as choosing when to shoot, placing actors, etc.

But...

It seems like every low-budget shoot that shoots outdoors all get approximately the same look, and beautiful as it is... it's never quite as good as what I see in big budget movies set outdoors, even if the lower budget has a talented DP. With interiors, I understand the big budget guys have far better instruments that equate to that better look, but what are they doing outside that looks better? Are they secretly blasting diffused HMIs running off generators onto the actors? Or is it more about professional color grading?
Click to expand...

For the person making a film on no budget, the basic recourse is to find locations, where the sun is mitigated, the light 'beautiful', and one must work fast to capture the moment...

The nolo budget filmmaker is pretty much reduced to reflectors and screening. Renting lights big enough to compete with the Sun, are out of the question. There are of course certain times of the day, where one can get good shots, with reflectors, and positioning of the talent relative to the Sun. Late afternoon, close to sun down, gives a really 'good light'... but it is fleeting...

Bright noonday shots... porticos, covered walkways, etc. shooting in areas where there are highly reflective surfaces, on the one hand offset the sun's direct rays, but also need to be 'shaped' perhaps with large black screens(think Target bedsheets on a simple frame...).

Generally one should shoot at least 15 minutes a day to practice(one of these days I'll get the time to do just that minimal activity...)... so... find an area that has seemingly good qualities, and shoot in it at various times of the day...

Another aspect of 'bright sun' is the squint on the actors... so, one needs to figure out how to block the scene so the actors are not looking at some 'bright' area of the location... or put up blackscreens in those areas to help out...

That or have everyone wearing sunglasses... ala "Men in Black"... or "The Blues Brothers"... no matter the genre of the film...
 
Thanks for the input guys, and j1, I'll be reserving a line for sunglasses in my next budget.

This brings me to another point: How do the big budget guys deal with weather? I'm sure there's some back-up locations involved if you're not getting quite what you want, but it seems like it'd be a nightmare to have everyone prepped for one indoor locations, look outside and say "The sun's perfect!" and have everyone run to the exterior location instead. But I also can't imagine them saying "Well, the sky's pretty overcast, and the scene really needs a bright sunny day... but screw it, we'll shoot it anyway."

And how would you deal with the unpredictable color temp of the sun in regards to using HMIs? Would you just keep a ton of gels around to correct, or is it something that comes with experience... "The scene needs it to be this sunny, when it's this sunny the color temp will be X" and then wait for the right day to do it?
 
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I have been on a commercial set, not even a feature film mind you, a commercial, where in the middle of a bright sunny day they had 6 X 12K HMIs blasting at the scene and 12' X 12' silks everywhere. Exteriors as noted above are huge grip days.
 
sonofaresiii said:
"The scene needs it to be this sunny, when it's this sunny the color temp will be X" and then wait for the right day to do it?
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While I've never been on a 'big set', I conjecture, one of the reasons for using big lights is one is not so dependent on The Sun... if need be one can make an approximation to The Sun, but that's the stuff budget overruns are made of, if The Sun was the thing being banked on in the initial budget.

I have seen on some of the BTS materials shots that were scrubbed for the day because of inclement weather. In one case, I think one shoot was in Iceland, the wind was driving small stones at speeds that pitted the windshields of the cars... not a good day... in another case, I think it was for the latest "Twilight" installment, the crew was at a beach house near Rio de Janeiro, and the rain not only scrubbed the day shoot, did not allow the crew to get back to their hotel by boat, so they had to sack out at the set house...

In the case of my own involvement with weddings... the show must go on no matter what... and one does depend on artificial light such as strobes in the still image case, to override whatever current lighting conditions that may exist. Then in 'post' processing add warmth or correction as required. The most important element being 'get the shot' no matter what... A big production may have the option of a reshoot, or a deferred shoot... but still I think the main goal is to get the shot when every one is there, because rescheduling or delayed production cost money.

As for a director 'waiting for the right conditions'... well if that happens too much on a project... that's when you start hearing about studios getting the director removed, and another brought in to 'finish' the film...

Now if you want to see how it was done in the olden days... here's a BTS for "Rebel with out a Cause"(1955)...
(And remember this is sunny Southern California we are talking about...)


Here's a collection of location shots from the movie. The shot where the kids are on the car, is at 1:25 in this youtube video. In addition the person who made this collection, gives 'current' stills of the locations in the movie, including the Griffiths Park scene, which is the subject of the BTS clip above.

 
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I saw the BTS of Revolutionary Road, where Deakins had them walk out of two giant white sheet frames. These were about 15 feet tall and wide, one on each side of the actors. They walked through, and it had a soft beautiful immersive quality. Cheap to DIY also. I've thought about trying that, but haven't been shooting really. That electrical conduit pipe in Loews should be adequate to build a simple frame that can stand on its own and break down.
 
please be careful when using your own GIANT rags outside. they are basically sails and can be vary dangerous if not properly secured.
 
f the reasons for using big lights is one is not so dependent on The Sun

Yes. The sun moves. If I have a scene that may take 5 hours to shoot I need the light to look the same at 11:00 AM as it does at 4:00 PM. A couple of 5 ton grip trucks and a bunch of HMIs can make that happen. It must be nice...
 
Matty_g said:
please be careful when using your own GIANT rags outside. they are basically sails and can be vary dangerous if not properly secured.
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Heed this warning, in case it went unnoticed.

Also, do realize that sometimes these scenes are being shot over the span of days. When no-budgeteers are shooting outside, we're trying to nail like four pages in a few hours.
 
OP might be confusing the look with contents. Contents is great acting, great location, costumes, proper casting, dialogue, how the scenes interacts in context of other scenes, direction and yes... placing the camera at the right time to shoot the right part of the scenes (cinematography). I've shot a tons of "right time" exteriors (shooting early in the morning or late in the afternoon saving all the CUs for mid day - as with CUs you can control the light much better) and as with everything the only a few times they ended up looking great (because of everything around my cinematography).

Two examples, low budgeter:
http://patrykrebisz.com/mv_bothsides.html

Higher budgeter:
http://patrykrebisz.com/c_acuvue.html
 
sonofaresiii said:
With interiors, I understand the big budget guys have far better instruments that equate to that better look, but what are they doing outside that looks better? Are they secretly blasting diffused HMIs running off generators onto the actors? Or is it more about professional color grading?
Click to expand...

Let's not give short shrift to the art directors and art departments either. If they do their jobs well, we can't tell explicitly what they've done. Yet it is the very subtlety that often makes the difference between good and excellent. A big chunk of that "big budget look" comes from art direction. Including exteriors.
 
Kholi said:
Heed this warning, in case it went unnoticed.

Also, do realize that sometimes these scenes are being shot over the span of days. When no-budgeteers are shooting outside, we're trying to nail like four pages in a few hours.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the heads up, but any advice on how to properly secure these kinds of things? It doesn't do me much good to know to be careful, if I don't know what I'm being careful to do!

And to the above 2-- I was indeed talking about look, not contents (and have gotten great advice on the differences in look), but thanks for bringing those up too, because you're right, very important to keep in mind as to how they help the overall quality.
 
I definitely know what look you're talking about, and it really has nothing to do with content IMO and everything to do with budget.

Google: 20 x 20 frame for lighting or whatever, you'll see what we mean. xD And a 20 x isn't all that big in comparison to some setups.

Another thing, that should be obvious, is camera's DR. That's why I'm so heady about the Magic Cam... thirteen stops is a lot of room to balance out highs and lows, man.
 
You really need a good grip to show you in person how to tie down a frame, but I'll give you a brief run down.

Tie two ropes to each top corner of your frame. Usually we use either four 50' lines or 2 100' lines. Tie it to the frame using a clove hitch and two half hitches to secure it. Then find some objects to tie your frame to, use trucker hitches to tie it off.

If you just have the frame tabled, you can get away with just tying the frame to itself. Do the same thing, but only using one line on each side run the rope through the bottom of the stand and use a truckers hitch to tie it to the other side of the frame. This will keep it from slowly turning and ultimately tipping over.

The first method is obviously optimal, but the second is definitely an accepted way of tying down a frame.

Only other thing is what do you do when you dont have anything to tie down to. On jobs where you actually have a truck and crew we'll put a sandbag cart sideways and tie it off to that. If you're in dirt or grass they have these things called bulls pricks or tent stakes that are just long pieces of metal that you pound into the ground with a sledgehammer and then tie off with that.

Obviously all these things are very involved, sometimes it just isn't safe to fly a certain good. Just use your best judgement and be safe.
 
sonofaresiii said:
This brings me to another point: How do the big budget guys deal with weather? I'm sure there's some back-up locations involved if you're not getting quite what you want, but it seems like it'd be a nightmare to have everyone prepped for one indoor locations, look outside and say "The sun's perfect!" and have everyone run to the exterior location instead. But I also can't imagine them saying "Well, the sky's pretty overcast, and the scene really needs a bright sunny day... but screw it, we'll shoot it anyway."

And how would you deal with the unpredictable color temp of the sun in regards to using HMIs? Would you just keep a ton of gels around to correct, or is it something that comes with experience... "The scene needs it to be this sunny, when it's this sunny the color temp will be X" and then wait for the right day to do it?
Click to expand...

It all really depends on what look/shots you need to shoot. I was on a commercial shoot earlier in the year where we had four ext shots that we knocked out in about two hours - it was early morning and an overcast day and so no lights were needed. Inside however, there was a point where we replaced an entire hallways worth of flouros with kino flos. It's all about experience, knowing what you may or may not need and when you'll need it. How long things take you to shoot etc. If you know that you have an ext shoot that's goign to take a few hours, you're probably going to pull out a whole bunch of HMIs and fake the sun - there's even 'fake' exteriors where you essentially 'fake' the sun and shoot the scene on a set, though it looks like it's shot outside.
From what I've seen on bigger budget productions, the budget's there to be able to table the shoot for the day if the weather turns bad. In terms of your described 'the sun's perfect' moment - that's generally what might happen on a low/no budget, but when you're going to be adding 60+ks of HMIs into the scene anyway, the sun is almost secondary.. Where it is and what is doing doesn't matter and it can't matter if you want your shots from the morning to match with the shots from the afternoon.
If you've ever seen TV OBs where they set up huge silks for the sun and then blast HMIs under those silks at the talent, just think of that on a bigger scale.
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
OP might be confusing the look with contents. Contents is great acting, great location, costumes, proper casting, dialogue, how the scenes interacts in context of other scenes, direction and yes... placing the camera at the right time to shoot the right part of the scenes (cinematography). I've shot a tons of "right time" exteriors (shooting early in the morning or late in the afternoon saving all the CUs for mid day - as with CUs you can control the light much better) and as with everything the only a few times they ended up looking great (because of everything around my cinematography).

Two examples, low budgeter:
http://patrykrebisz.com/mv_bothsides.html

Higher budgeter:
http://patrykrebisz.com/c_acuvue.html
Click to expand...


I've always been curious about how the scheduling works out for these "all magic-hour" videos. How many days did you have to shoot this one over? Did you do a ton of rehearsing or just a ton of improvisation? Or did you just have an insanely good AD?
 
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