Better recorder for sync then Zoom h4?

Patryk_Rebisz

Patryk_Rebisz

Veteran
I'm embarking on a long doc project that will be shot with Canon 7D and external recorder. Right now i own Zoom h4 (NOT h4n) and it works well BUT the audio always needs some basic post work (namely stretching it a bit so both beginning and ending of waveform of ref audio of the camera and the recorder line up). Thus i'm looking for an alternative.

Here is what my audio set-up is now:
Rode NTG2 > MixPre (NOT D) > Zoom h4 through its 1/4 inputs
ref audio is recorded from mixer through 1/8 tape out > -10db pad > canon 7d

Any recommendations?
 
Unless you're using a sync system where the camera and recorder share a master clock, you're going to have some degree of drift over longer takes... typically anything 10 minutes or more. Zoom seems to be one of the worse offenders when it comes to drift in a non-sync second system. Tascam and Fostex are better, but not perfect. In fairness, though, even Sound Devices recorders will drift if they're running non-sync.

If you're going to be running with a MixPre on a doc shoot, you might want to go ahead and upgrade to a bag-friendly recorder (HD-P2, FR-2LE).

As a side note, Canon DSLR footage is out of sync with its own audio by 1 or 2 frames, if you haven't noticed that yet.
 
Alex, thanks for the info. NO, i haven't noticed the sync issue within the camera yet.

Are there any smaller alternatives then the ones you recommend?
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
Are there any smaller alternatives then the ones you recommend?
Click to expand...

Go back and read the "$300 Recorder" sticky again. There are recommendations there, including what's probably the best bang-for-the-buck deal in low-cost handhelds.

That said, the handheld form factor is simply clumsy for field recording with a mixer and boom setup. I have one, I love it, and it stays in my kit at all times. It is, however, for specific tasks (mostly for gathering ambient beds and other FX on the run) and is not a primary recorder.
 
Patryk,

I started off with the original H4 also. I traded it primarily because of the visceral hate I had for the controls. My first upgrade was to a tascam dr100, which I still have. There was no particular improvement in audio IMHO, but the improved controls and power were a huge improvement. Both the zoom models and dr100 can run a bit short on gain, especially with low output mics. If you run a mixer in front, you are golden. Another excellent option which won't break the bank is the multichannel tascam dr680 or the two channel hdp2. The hdps2 can accept time code, but this won't help you at all without a camera that has time time code features, and a 7d doesn't. I do believe a af100 will take time code, but you will need a generating device. Most of the higher end p2 Panny cams will generate time code.

Grant

Grant
 
Thanks guys. So it looks like the two choices are:
DR-40
DR-100MKII

anyone has used it with Canon 7d? Will i have any issues feeding the signal (XLR to XLR) from my MixPre mixer?
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
Thanks guys. So it looks like the two choices are:
DR-40
DR-100MKII
Click to expand...

If you absolutely must get a handheld recorder, those are great starting places.

Though the tactile control of the DR-100mkII is nice, the DR-40 has much more flexible recording features. It can record from external inputs and built-in mics at the same time across 4 channels, which can be really handy for recording music/live shows or certain sound beds and FX. It can also record a default safety track (lower level to avoid clipping) on the second stereo pair of record tracks.

Patryk_Rebisz said:
anyone has used it with Canon 7d? Will i have any issues feeding the signal (XLR to XLR) from my MixPre mixer?
Click to expand...

They can both take balanced, line-level input. You should be fine.
 
I have a Roland R-26 and find that it doesn't drift much at all on longer takes that go as long as my DSLR will allow--typically 12 minutes. I've had no problems with syncing. Good pre's, too, that beat the cheaper Tascams like the DR100 and all Zoom recorders. Not bag friendly but works far better with an NTG2. I now use it with an NTG3.
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
anyone has used it with Canon 7d?
Click to expand...

Nobody has used it with YOUR Canon 7d. And THAT is the issue.
You could have a perfect recorder, but if your 7d has marginal timing you will always have problems. Synch for prosumer gear like those recorders and your camera depend on quartz crystals that cost less than $1 in production quantities. They don't hand-tune them for perfect timing. Even cheap $5 wrist-watches get better clock calibration than a $5000 DSLR.

You didn't mention how LONG are the takes you are having problems with. You also didn't mention how MUCH adjustment you are requiring for proper sync. Better to err on the side of too MUCH detail than too little.

As Alex.H mentioned, the rule of thumb is that shots much over 10 minutes are practically guaranteed to drift out of sync to a significant amount using non-sync equipment. But then a 10-minute uninterrupted shot is deadly-dull. We typically try to do some B-roll or reverse-angle or audience, or wide shots, etc. etc. And any place you cut the video is another opportunity to "pull-up" the sync.

It is never recommended to stretch the AUDIO track since it is extremely difficult to do small changes without causing nasty artifacts. Use the sound track as the MASTER SYNC and slide the video to match the audio. There are even software tools to do this for you ("Plural Eyes"). But it seems easy enough that I don't know why anybody would need that kind of tool. And dropping a frame, or duplicating a frame here or there is typically imperceptible to the average viewer. Stretching the video track to match the audio typically produces far fewer noticeable artifacts.
 
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ggrantly said:
I started off with the original H4 also. I traded it primarily because of the visceral hate I had for the controls.
Click to expand...

+1000 ;-)

I got an H4n because "everyone" seemed to be using them, but straight off I hated it. The exposed mics on the end are just waiting to bang against something and snap off. And even with my cloth ears, I was appalled at the amount of hiss.

I traded over to a Roland R-26, and my first impression was horror at the high-school-workshop build quality. However, it seems robust, and the input noise is nothing compared to the H4n. Still using it, with a shoulder strap, and it's working for me.
 
Thanks Alex.
Thanks DNN, i'll look into Roland.

Richard, the clips i'm talking about are 10 min or longer.
This was requested by my editor (and request supported by me as i've seen enough second-guessing "is he in sync or am i seeing things?") not to want to deal with it and letting go of some marginal quality (the artifacts) in exchange for better sync.
 
Patryk

I know you were primarily discussing drift. Didn't know you had a mixpre in front of the recorder, so from an audio standpoint, you are golden with most any cheapo recorder as most will function fine as a bit bucket. Considering you are shooting with a non-TC dslr, there isn't much you can except fix it in post. As an alternative, can you shorten your takes so everything is in smaller chunks? If you can do it, this will be the easiest fix before you get to the edit bay.

Grant
 
ggrantly,
the beef with Zoom is the sync issue and its reliability - a number of clips in the past was corrupted. Thus i'm looking for something that's semi-pro so i don't have to worry if the clip will end up being corrupted or not.
 
If you (or your editor) want good sound quality with perfect sync for long takes, then a DSLR (or any DSLR and any external recorder) is not an appropriate solution.

That is a prime violation of the good/fast/cheap rule. It is very very rare in the Real World that you can have all three concurrently.

You seem to have proved that for yourself. Your requirements are significantly beyond the capability of DSLRs at this point in their development.

I would not assume that you can solve this issue with ANY external recorder. The DSLR itself could very well be the problem.
 
Richard Crowley said:
If you (or your editor) want good sound quality with perfect sync for long takes, then a DSLR (or any DSLR and any external recorder) is not an appropriate solution.

That is a prime violation of the good/fast/cheap rule. It is very very rare in the Real World that you can have all three concurrently.

You seem to have proved that for yourself. Your requirements are significantly beyond the capability of DSLRs at this point in their development.

I would not assume that you can solve this issue with ANY external recorder. The DSLR itself could very well be the problem.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure the issue is the Zoom recorder rather then DSLR becaue whenever i use my soundman with his sophisticated recorder the sound is right on the money.
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
I'm pretty sure the issue is the Zoom recorder rather then DSLR becaue whenever i use my soundman with his sophisticated recorder the sound is right on the money.
Click to expand...

Excellent. Then you have confirmed that the DSLR is close enough for your purposes. For others reading this: not all DSLRs are as accurate as Patryk's.
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
ggrantly,
the beef with Zoom is the sync issue and its reliability - a number of clips in the past was corrupted. Thus i'm looking for something that's semi-pro so i don't have to worry if the clip will end up being corrupted or not.
Click to expand...

Though a DR100 may not be anyones dream recorder, at least for me, it has been very reliable and coming from a H4, the build quality is entirely better. The dual power option for long takes would be an awesome feature for you. You have both an internal LiIo battery and a pack of AAs. You set which one gets used first then it can auto switch to the backup. This is a really nice feature.

As previously mentioned, the DR680 and HDP2 both deliver good value. I chose the 680 because of the multi-channel capability, though note that the advertising is a little misleading. The 680 only has four xlr inputs, and six phantom channels, and eight total. But Tascam leads you slightly astray on this unless you read carefully. At least in the case of the 680, the preamps are much stronger than the dr100, though if you have a mixpre feeding it, it doesn't much matter. I don't have personal experience with the HDP2 but there are listers here who have.

Grant
 
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