best sub $1k all arounder for camerman/DP?

puredrifting

puredrifting

Major Contributor
Hi all:

I have used, reviewed and written about the Sanken CS3e. I liked it, it seemed like a good all arounder but it didn't blow me away as it has some other sound oriented shooters, but I was not using it in difficult situations as a sound mixer, just mainly testing in the studio, comparing it against half a dozen other mics. I have not tried the Røde NTG-3 although I know it is much like the MKH-416 but a little better and more versatile at a significantly lower cost. Although I could save my pennies for a really nice mic like the Sanken, Sennheiser MKH-50, Schoeps CMC641 or the Schoeps CMITMini, part of me realizes that mics of that level are probably more in the realm of pro sound mixers to justify the price. When I am doing my own sound, it is almost always going straight into camera, not through a mixer or Sound Devices recorder because I am a DP/cameraman. I know that running a $2,000.00 mic straight into camera is not even coming close to realizing the sound potential of the mic, therefore, I bring myself back down to earth and think I should be buying a sub $1k mic for banging around in my camera bag for occasional use, when there is no sound mixer on the call sheet. When I research all of the mics out there, I keep coming back to the NTG-3.

In your opinion, is there anything else out there sub $1k that beats the NTG-3 as a sit down interview, interior and exterior all arounder? For the same reasons I outline above, I cannot see buying both a hyper or super cardioid and a shotgun, and I know that shotguns are often a compromise for shooting indoor in reverberant environments, but I would like to buy something that works well in most situations. I really push to hire a sound mixer whenever possible but as we know these days, clients often will cheap out and not want to hire a sound mixer to shoot simple interviews so I have to have a decent all around mic for those situations. I own the Audio Technica AT875r, Sennheiser ME64, 66, MKE600 and I like them and use all of them to varying degrees although I am selling the ME64 and 66, they just don't sound very good to me anymore but the 875r and MKE600 are both decent sounding, but I would like something a bit more refined so I am thinking of the NTG-3. Opinions?
 
For me that's kind of a tough one, because I'm one of those "I like a specific mic for specific applications" type of people. If you only had to use one mic for what you describe, then I'd seriously consider the CS3e. Pick one up used if you need to. Also check out the CS1e. That mic gets very little mention, but I absolutely love it. I used that mic for all of my K-Tek videos, both inside and out. You need to be close, though.

This new Aputure Deity is worth checking out. I haven't gotten my hands on one yet. The reviews have been all over the place depending on who reviews it, but the price is nice, and if you just need something, it might work, but it sounds really weird off axis, at least in the videos I saw.

Other than that, I'd say go for two mics, a good indoor and another outdoor. The Audio Technica AT4053b is a fantastic hypercardioid at a great price when it comes to the lower cost microphones. You could probably get away with it in quiet exterior locations where you can close mic. I know guys who use the 50 on exteriors as much as possible if the shot is tight enough.
 
The Audio Technica AT-875r that I have had for years isn't terrible outside and I already have the Rycote Lyre mount and Rycote dead cat for it already. Perhaps using the AT4053b as my indoor cardioid interview mic and the 875r for occasional exteriors might be a good plan? I would say that my ratio is probably 70% indoors with only an oocasional outdoor interview although I must also say that I rarely have reverb or ambient reflection issues with the 875r when shooting with it indoors. I could keep my eye out for a used CS3e also. Thanks for the suggestions Dave.
 
Think of microphones as prime lenses...but prime lenses locked to a single aperture and single focus setting. That's why I have and use several (though really, I mostly work with a Sanken CS3e and Schoeps 641...and if I worked in more controlled/quieter locations, I might choose a Schoeps CMIT or DPA short shotgun over the CS33).

Since I'm not an idiot, I agree with Dave. A used Sanken CS3e runs about $1000 these days. And the CS1e is pretty nice...note that I owned a CS1 (non-e) and thought it was good, but had too much self noise. Maybe also check out the Sanken CS2.

My hazy (and perhaps inaccurate) tracking of the Apurture Deity reviews is that the more experience the reviewer has, the less the reviewer likes it. I guess it's not terrible for the price (I haven't seen or used one in person). But IIRC, Ty Ford thought it had a quite a bit of self noise. I think he posted briefly about it here on dvxuser.

As for the NTG-3, I reviewed one when they first came out. Hauled it along on a tough road shoot; after a few days I sent it home, though part of the reason was I didn't like the first-generation blimp Rode included with the mic (I hear their current blimp is OK). Also, I had other mics I liked better. The NTG-3 is worth checking out...decent indoors, IIRC. Kinda heavy, iirc.

So I'd keep the AT875r, but demote it to backup use. Check out the Audio Technica 4053, Rode, and Sanken options. You know, for $1000, you could probably get a new AT4053 AND a used AT4073 short shotgun; that'd be a nice pairing that would match up well. I have a 4073 and it's fairly decent...

I'd think Location Sound and Trew Audio, both in LA, would have those all on hand so you could try them out in the store, then briefly step outside, make some recordings, and then listen to the recordings through headphones and then through decent audio monitors.
 
Meh. I have both the MKE600 and the AT875r, and for your scenario, the only other mic I would even consider would be the AT4053b. I feel the MKE600 covers you for general shotgun situations for something that runs straight into the camera... which is what that mic was designed for. Your exact use scenario as you described it - in fact, when it originally came out, that's how Sennheiser promoted it - as an "on camera" mic. It works very, very well for that purpose. The AT875r is also a decent pick for an all-around mic, though the MKE600 sound is in my opinion a bit fuller. Personally, I think you are set for the particular scenario you described - save your money, any additional quality mic for just "banging around" is not going to be a quality difference that's discernible, so why go and spend money? If you were looking for a mic that's going to be used in difficult sensitive situations with pro sound people, that would be different, but in the scenario you outlined I see no justification for buying "slightly better" quality that will amount to nothing in the situations you're likely to use it. But of course, I understand how it goes with film gear - money is burning a hole in your pocket and you feel you just must spend it on another piece of gear. And if so, I'd spend it on a very good quality indoor mic like the AT4053b, because at least that will cover you for interiors with no compromise, as both the MKE600 and the AT875r are shotguns. That would be some kind of justification for spending the $, instead of buying yet another marginally better shotgun (as that's all you'd get for sub $1K) that will in reality add nothing to your use scenarios. Personally, I'd vote for saving the money - or spending it on some other film-related gear that will have a bigger impact on your work ability. In my opinion, another marginally better sub-$1K shotgun mic will make no difference in that situation - money wasted.
 
puredrifting said:
Hi all:

I have used, reviewed and written about the Sanken CS3e. I liked it, it seemed like a good all arounder but it didn't blow me away as it has some other sound oriented shooters, but I was not using it in difficult situations as a sound mixer, just mainly testing in the studio, comparing it against half a dozen other mics. I have not tried the Røde NTG-3 although I know it is much like the MKH-416 but a little better and more versatile at a significantly lower cost. Although I could save my pennies for a really nice mic like the Sanken, Sennheiser MKH-50, Schoeps CMC641 or the Schoeps CMITMini, part of me realizes that mics of that level are probably more in the realm of pro sound mixers to justify the price. When I am doing my own sound, it is almost always going straight into camera, not through a mixer or Sound Devices recorder because I am a DP/cameraman. I know that running a $2,000.00 mic straight into camera is not even coming close to realizing the sound potential of the mic, therefore, I bring myself back down to earth and think I should be buying a sub $1k mic for banging around in my camera bag for occasional use, when there is no sound mixer on the call sheet. When I research all of the mics out there, I keep coming back to the NTG-3.

In your opinion, is there anything else out there sub $1k that beats the NTG-3 as a sit down interview, interior and exterior all arounder? For the same reasons I outline above, I cannot see buying both a hyper or super cardioid and a shotgun, and I know that shotguns are often a compromise for shooting indoor in reverberant environments, but I would like to buy something that works well in most situations. I really push to hire a sound mixer whenever possible but as we know these days, clients often will cheap out and not want to hire a sound mixer to shoot simple interviews so I have to have a decent all around mic for those situations. I own the Audio Technica AT875r, Sennheiser ME64, 66, MKE600 and I like them and use all of them to varying degrees although I am selling the ME64 and 66, they just don't sound very good to me anymore but the 875r and MKE600 are both decent sounding, but I would like something a bit more refined so I am thinking of the NTG-3. Opinions?
Click to expand...

Looks like you and I are on the same page once again haha! My on-camera shotgun for my C100MKII is currently the AT875R, which is short enough with the Rycote Softie that I can get as wide as 12mm on my 10-18 if really needed. My main shotgun is the NTG-3 though, which I got in a fantastic bundle from DVeStore (their Location Sound 4 package that comes with the NTG-3, Rode Blimp, and KE79CC). So far I'm very happy with both the NTG-3 and the Rode Blimp. To my admittedly untrained ears, the NTG-3 sounds fantastic. I think the combination is going to be as much of a workhorse shotgun/blimp for me as I'll need when I'm operating by myself. I'm running it into either my Tascam DR-70D, Zoom H5, or straight into the C100.

For my indoor mic I currently have an Audix SCX1-HC, but that seems to have developed some sort of awful buzzing sound in it unfortunately, so I'll probably be in the market for an Audio Technica AT4053B soon for that purpose.
 
I have sobbed many tears and dollars over the best kit for my situation. Since I do often work alone, and don't like to rent, I need to have enough audio kit to produce decent audio under a variety of circumstances. First, as an owner of the 875, it's a mic I really like, especially for the price. I also have a NTG3 which is much more expensive, and in an entirely different class of audio; no comparison at all. Not only is the sound superior, it is also has a much hotter output which takes some pressure off you camera preamps. As good as the NTG3 is, there will be days it won't produce acceptable audio indoors, it just won't. So as Dave suggested, look at the 4053b as a companion. It is a great mic for just about everything indoors. I'd love to own the CS3e, but I can own both the NTG3 and the 4053b for about the same money.

Another suggestion if you record audio to your cam; try out using a SD302 or Mixpre feeding line level to your cam. Besides the obvious improvement in preamps, you get better metering, better ability to ride levels and a whole bunch more. I hang a 302 on a small shelf and magic arm off my tripod. The Mixpre can be had with a mounting threaded 1/4" bracket as well. This will improve your audio nearly as much as better mics IMHO.

Edit: I can imagine that the next class up in mic like the best Sankens, Senns, and the rest will produce better sound yet, but at a diminishing return. Those small incremental improvements come more slowly at the high end of the market. I can't see spending $1500 on a mic and feeding that to a cam.

G
 
Don't forget (as many do) to consider the two AKG modular offerings: the cheaper Blue Line, of which the hypercardioid CK93 is particularly good; and the more expensive and extremely good - and much lower self-noise + much hotter output - ULS series, with the hypercardioid CK63 and the two-different-length-mics-in-one CK69 shotgun.

Cheers,

Roland
 
Wee, what fun. You know what? I haven't used hardly any of them. I like my AT4073A ($180 on eBay). If the mic I was planing on before I found the 4073 was the AT875R. You have the 875, I think you have to pay a lot more to better it.

Someday, I hope to find a nice AT4053A to back up the 4073, but in the mean time I have a pair of those LyxPro that you can read about on this board. Probably if I was able to buy new I would go with the AT BP4073B and their AT4053B, but I am not sure they are better than their predecessors or just cheaper to make.




wee
 
ggrantly said:
Another suggestion if you record audio to your cam; try out using a SD302 or Mixpre feeding line level to your cam. Besides the obvious improvement in preamps, you get better metering, better ability to ride levels and a whole bunch more. I hang a 302 on a small shelf and magic arm off my tripod. The Mixpre can be had with a mounting threaded 1/4" bracket as well. This will improve your audio nearly as much as better mics IMHO.

G
Click to expand...

Can you show your set up where you hang the 302 on the tripod? I am trying to explore the possibility of hanging the SD702 off my tripod and feeding the camera in certain situations. So later I comeback and replace it with the recorded sound from 702.
 
I am in the opposite direction. As a DP/camera, I am handling audio, the clients don't get a mixer or outboard recorder. If they want premium sound, they can hire a sound mixer, with me they will get decent sound, not premium sound. I am usually far too busy dealing with shot composition, camera movement, camera batteries, hard drive recorder batteries, exposure to deal with a mixer, I just run mics straight into camera. When we shoot high profile single interviews or stand ups, the producer always seems to find the money to hire a sound mixer, more for show than for the sound quality increase. But for the typical single or even two person/two camera stuff, it usually falls to me. I can appreciate that using a mixer would give me better sound but it is more expense, cables, extra set of batteries to worry about, etc. I get it with you Sabyasachi, you are out in nature and not dealing with actors, directors and producers, but for me, I kind of draw the line with a mixer. If they want a mixer, they need to hire a sound mixer.
 
puredrifting said:
I am in the opposite direction. As a DP/camera, I am handling audio, the clients don't get a mixer or outboard recorder. If they want premium sound, they can hire a sound mixer, with me they will get decent sound, not premium sound. I am usually far too busy dealing with shot composition, camera movement, camera batteries, hard drive recorder batteries, exposure to deal with a mixer, I just run mics straight into camera. When we shoot high profile single interviews or stand ups, the producer always seems to find the money to hire a sound mixer, more for show than for the sound quality increase. But for the typical single or even two person/two camera stuff, it usually falls to me. I can appreciate that using a mixer would give me better sound but it is more expense, cables, extra set of batteries to worry about, etc. I get it with you Sabyasachi, you are out in nature and not dealing with actors, directors and producers, but for me, I kind of draw the line with a mixer. If they want a mixer, they need to hire a sound mixer.
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That's me as well. I built out my audio kit to be portable, easy and efficient for me to set up with minimal fiddling during a shoot, and give me at least the opportunity to give good enough sound when I can't hire a sound mixer and/or boom op. Most of the time I'm straight into the camera as well, but I do have the option of my H5 or DR-70D as well (the H5 at least is always in my kit regardless for doing nat/bg/Foley etc. separately). I doubt I'll ever buy a mixer though.
 
I have a different take on mics than ggrantly. The big advantage of my $1600 Schoeps mic over others I've used isn't just that it sounds better (which it does)...but that it's off-axis response also sounds great. When working as a mixer, I like that I can move between speakers organically and appropriately and get smooth tracks.

But the big advantage is when the mic's on a pole attached to a stand for a sit-down interview. If the interviewee squirms and moves around, he or she will still be under the lovely large sweetspot of my mic. If plans change an I need to split the mic between two speakers (let's get the whole family on the couch...uh how many appropriate mics do I have with me?), I can do that and still get good tracks. That expensive mic makes my tracks sound better and actually makes my job easier... and that's especially important when I'm a OMB.

That all said, the AT4053 ain't so bad.
 
You are right Dan! In some of my own wildlife productions, it is difficult for me to carry a dedicated sound mixer due to location constraints. My partner runs between the boom and the b camera or just trying to ensure that I am safe. :) So I was trying to explore the possibility of rigging the SD 702 in the tripod. I also do freelance, shooting docs and interviews/corporates for other channels and foreign agencies. And in some of those, especially corporates they are just trying to squeeze and ask me to do the interviews as a one man band. In those situations, I clearly specify that sound will be recorded directly to camera, else budget for a sound dude. When I shoot for broadcasters, this type of nonsense is not there as they budget properly and are generally clear of the situation. The sad thing is people think sound is not a speciality subject and anyone can do it.
 
davefisk said:
If you only had to use one mic for what you describe, then I'd seriously consider the CS3e. Pick one up used if you need to. Also check out the CS1e. That mic gets very little mention, but I absolutely love it. I used that mic for all of my K-Tek videos, both inside and out. You need to be close, though.
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Agreed, for an all rounder for what the OP describes the CS3e fits the bill when you get into mics that retail above a grand. Aside from the great sound it has, is the rejection and the low noise floor. It is a thing to behold if you are used to $400 to $600 mics.

Jim Feeley said:
Think of microphones as prime lenses...but prime lenses locked to a single aperture and single focus setting. That's why I have and use several (though really, I mostly work with a Sanken CS3e and Schoeps 641...and if I worked in more controlled/quieter locations, I might choose a Schoeps CMIT or DPA short shotgun over the CS33).

Since I'm not an idiot, I agree with Dave...
Click to expand...

The comment about looking at mics like prime lenses is apt. But if you had to choose one for what you describe this would be it. I don't have the Schoeps 641 in my stable yet. I use the Sennheiser MKH-50 for largely indoor work. I absolutely love this microphone for both the sonics and super low noise floor. I actually use the MKH 50 more than the CS3e but I do largely indoor work. I have a MKH 416 but it hasn't seen much air time since the Sanken has been in my kit.

It is also good to remember that if you buy a GOOD microphone, your sound will be better than most, second the resale value on good mics is VERY good. As an example, an MKH50 sells used for $100 to $250 below retail and they get snaped up within a day or three on forums like JWSound. Sanken CS3e retain their value quite well but not quite to the level of the aforementioned MKH mic.

Never regreted buying a good mic. Ever. Pulling the money together before it goes to something else is the issue.

EDIT:

Agreed also with the comment about using a good mic, makes your job easier...way easier by a couple of magnitudes.
 
I'll back the CS3e, as well. I actually have two, so that we can having matching booms on sit-down interviews. When I decided to upgrade from my Senn ME66/K6 years ago, I was looking heavily at the Shoepps 'Blue', as that was the big thing, at the time. One of my sound guys actually talked me out of it and heavily recommended the Sanken for what I/we do- a mix of ENG and sit-downs.

Ive never run the CS3e directly into one of my cams, but I think I'd rather have a good mic going directly into the camera than a bad one going through a mixer*.


*Not taking into account the skill of the audio person.
 
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