Best MiniDV Camera (or other) for Extreme Sports Movies?

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DukeONuke

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OK wise and seasoned DV folks (from the relatively inexperienced DV guy), please help me out here. I'm looking to purchase a video camera for shooting adrenaline sports action (i.e. - skiing, kite surfing, surfing, etc.). So for the most part I'll be shooting scenes from some considerable distances. So in my hunt for the "right" single camera I've run upon the dilemma of limited zoom with the Panasonic DVX100's. I've used a Canon GL2 with 20x optical zoom and mounted with a 1.6x doubler for some distance surf/windsurf/kitesurf shoots, and that got me up front and center on most subjects. With all the capabilities that the DVX100's have, they are limited by their optical zoom of only 10X. I usually stay completely away from going into the digital zoom realm as the picture quality goes downhill fast.

1. What would be the best under ~$4K video camera for the above scenario?

2. What options are there to get more optical zoom capability out of a DVX100-?

3. Should I opt for the GL2 (20X opt zoom) over the DVX100 (10X opt zoom), for this type of shooting?

4. Any other grand ideas?

I'd love to get the DVX100A for all of its other capabilities, but it seems to me the zoom issue is a big one for this type of action sports stuff. What say ye O' wise swamis of DV?

Thanks,

DukeONuke
 
One question you have to ask yourself is, Do I need 24p? If the answer is no, then you can go for a much cheaper camera than the DVX. If the answer is yes, then you're looking at the DVX with the 1.6x tele adapter from Century Optics or the XL2.
 
No contest, the GL2, with a waterproof housing.

The DVX is nice, but you need the zoom, you don't need 24p, and you'll get excellent results.
 
Dude! How will you be handling the camera? I hope you will be using a tripod?

The above 24P question still applies! And, do you need 16x9? You obviously need 20x or more (at the very least 16x), but most importantly, you will need a serious tripod to get smooth motion when fully zoomed in. If you don't have one, is your under $4000 budget solely for the camcorder?

Choices that are 24P capable: DVX100 (16x: but requires a screw-on 1.6 tele adapter to fit the bill, but may bring you over budget). The XL2 (20x native: but may be a tad over your budget).

16x9 choices: XL2

Standard 4:3 60i: Canon GL2 (best value, and probably your best bet). Sony PD170 (24x: with a screw-on 2.0x tele adapter)

Other then that, make sure whatever glass you end up adding to your camcorder is able to attach a filter. You might want to think about a polarizer to cut down the glare from the water and snow.

Oh! If you're going to be using the camcorder hand held. You might want to revise the use of long reach telephoto cameras. Otherwise, you'll make your audience sea sick!
 
pookie said:
No contest, the GL2, with a waterproof housing.
Click to expand...

I 'd rather call it: "splash-water proof"- or "dust-proof"- housing

There is a huge difference between

a) sports-housings

and

b) underwater-housings


---------------------------------------------------------------------

a) cheap, lot of camera functions, sometimes slightly water-proof, sandstorm-proof, light, perfect for surfing, windsurfing, water-ski, snowboard, splashing salt water etc. (CAN'T GO DIVING WITH IT!!!)

b) 4 - 20 times more expensive, heavy (2-40 kg), pressure-proof, extremly sensitive at shocks (won't be waterproof anymore after a hard shock/strike), perfect for watersports (but too heavy) and underwatersports (weight gets equaled underwater).

So, you're not completely wrong, Pookie, saying "water-proof", but it's just 2 very different types of housings. And for rain, snow, beach and splashing (salt-) water, a sports-housing is the thing of choice.

Still cheaper: rain-coat. But e.g. doing snowboard, if the camera falls down, I'd rather like to have a sports-housing protecting a little from the shock and from entering (snow-)water, than a rain-coat that will not absorbe any shock.
 
Thanks for the great input folks! The 4K is just camera budget. Planning on a Bogen tripod with a fluid head. And definitely need to get the water/sand/element barrier (sports housing).

So would there be a real advantage of shooting 24P (film like footage for say a ski movie)?

Does Match Stick Productions (MSP), Teton Gravity Research (TGR), Warren Miller (Boring Miller), others use much 24P footage? Anyone know (not just guess)?

Fred (Flintstone)..I thought the DVX100A & B also shoot in 16x9, or some assimilated format, correct? 16x9 capability would be sweet, but at this point (the beginning of my video career) I don't know that it is absolutely essential. Feedback?

Cannon XL2 would be a good option, but I'm hesitant to go with a larger camera for handheld and stabilized camera in motion shoots (like me skiing backwards shooting a guy cruising the terrain park). Also with no LCD Video Display Screen, that would just piss me off (XL2 has none correct?).

So is there any camera that has 24P and decent zoom (and let price go up to say 5K or thereabouts)? Or is there a way to mount some sort of adaptive zoom lens to a DVX100AorB? Or should I forget about 24P for these type of action documentaries/movies? That's my big dilemma.

The Duke
 
HorseFilms said:
One question you have to ask yourself is, Do I need 24p? If the answer is no, then you can go for a much cheaper camera than the DVX. If the answer is yes, then you're looking at the DVX with the 1.6x tele adapter from Century Optics or the XL2.
Click to expand...

Horsefilms said it all.
 
Call it what you wan't but Pookie said Waterpoof-Housing; not Underwater-housing.

But your rant is noted.

Yes; HORSE gave you the correct answer DukeONuke

cici said:
I 'd rather call it: "splash-water proof"- or "dust-proof"- housing

There is a huge difference between

a) sports-housings

and

b) underwater-housings

---------------------------------------------------------------------

a) cheap, lot of camera functions, sometimes slightly water-proof, sandstorm-proof, light, perfect for surfing, windsurfing, water-ski, snowboard, splashing salt water etc. (CAN'T GO DIVING WITH IT!!!)

b) 4 - 20 times more expensive, heavy (2-40 kg), pressure-proof, extremly sensitive at shocks (won't be waterproof anymore after a hard shock/strike), perfect for watersports (but too heavy) and underwatersports (weight gets equaled underwater).

So, you're not completely wrong, Pookie, saying "water-proof", but it's just 2 very different types of housings. And for rain, snow, beach and splashing (salt-) water, a sports-housing is the thing of choice.

Still cheaper: rain-coat. But e.g. doing snowboard, if the camera falls down, I'd rather like to have a sports-housing protecting a little from the shock and from entering (snow-)water, than a rain-coat that will not absorbe any shock.
Click to expand...
 
John_Hudson said:
Call it what you wan't but Pookie said Waterpoof-Housing; not Underwater-housing.
Click to expand...

"water-proof" is a typical attribute for UW-housings and NOT sports-housings. Try to dive with a sports-housing and you'll understand why I stress this out that much. I have seen tourists loosing their (Sony)camera and others loosing their torches because they thought that splashwater-proof means water-proof. Water enters and theeeeeere goes your camera...

I just wanted to prevent prejudice, because in the forum where I work, 1 of 2 times people confuse sports-housing and underwater-housing. (BTW it's all snow-board, surfing, kite-surfing etc. -filmers as this is a great hype for videographers over here)"water-proof" is relative - you will say a sports-housing is relatively water-proof, but I will say: jump with it into water and it's possible that water enters because even the jumping itself can produce some hundred millibar of pression and that's quickly more than most sports-housings can beare - so in my eyes: NO Duke doesn't need a water-proof-housing, as he's not gonna dive but he needs a housing resistant to splashing-water. It's the same issue with so called "water-proof" watches. And 3 ATM means not that water can't enter if you dive 30 meters.... even if some manuals say so (any good diver knows this myth). As people confuse the 2 kind of housings, they also confuse the prejudices: "isn't that housing too heavy? / expensive?" etc. - NO - a sports-housing isn't that expensive. And as I wrote: vice-versa I don't suggest to use an underwaterhousing for filming while surfing. Even if it's light carbonfibre, because one single shock can destroy it's 100% water-proofness for e.g. 90m.

The underwater-housing IS 100% water-proof, the sports-housing isn't supposed to be. There is another word for it, that I don't know in english: for watches you have the same expressions: "water-proof" means that the water is under pressure (as it is when you dive even only 1 inch or jump into the water) and the other word that I'm looking for is for splashing-water that is NOT under pressure (overwater-sports).

Don't mistake me, but I want to mark a clear difference between the 2 housings, as people confuse them daily...
 
Duke, take a look at the XL2. Nothing else is going to get you the telephoto reach you're after, except maybe a GL2 (not sure how they compare for field of view). The DVX+telconverter is going to max out at 72mm; the XL2 goes to about 110mm. If you don't need to zoom, but you do need tele, you could put a Canon EOS lens on it and have a quite compact camera at that point, with as much tele reach as you need. It'll just barely skate under your price point, but assuming you can find a decent sports housing for it, it's probably the best-suited cam for your purposes under $4,000 (and it's $1 under $4000 at B&H!)
 
cici, loosen your shorts up.

You're too anal about waterproof, sports housing, underwater, dustproof, water resistant or just coffee proof.

I said waterproof, for "shooting adrenaline sports action (i.e. - skiing, kite surfing, surfing, etc".

Simple.

Now, get out there and get yourself one size larger fruit of the looms, and loosen up.:thumbsup:
 
Pookie just name me one single water-proof housing for the GL1 / GL2 / XL1 / XL2 -- I would wonder if you can find a sports-housing for that camera.... but I can find several underwater-housings for it - the one has nothing to do with the other and it's just extremely difficult to find sports-housings for cameras. It 'd be non-sense to use a 20kg underwater-housing for that camera just for fiming sufring people!

What's this childish personal chat all about? I have fun too in this forum, but this is just not the topic to joke because we talk about some thousand dollars for the camera and some thousand for a water-proof housing (as there are no sports-housings for this model) and not only the decision what camera to buy now, but also what camera probably to loose because of not enough seriousness with the term "water-proof".

As I work most time with housings for years now, I have seen several cameras diying because of misunderstanding of the housing's meanings. I have seen people snorkeling with sports-housing and the camera was a rusty trash within a few moments (it takes seconds and minutes only until the saltwater covers the electronic parts with rust - like aluminium oxidation of pure aluminium).

Sports-housings are NOT water-proof in that sense - you just can't go diving with them. People use them for (over-)water-sports and then they have ideas, like: "well, let's film the surfboard from down under the water when it glides over the housing" .... You can take a sports-housing into the water, but the restrictions are very pityless and people just neither respect these restrictions, nor do they mostly know about them. The housing can float in the water, but already floating, the air inside the housing is in an underpressure-state, because the pressure of the water increases very fast beginning at a depth of 0. It grows the most within the first inches - much more than it will do after 100m of depth. And people don't think, that even swimming produces water pressure and jumping - and the pressure of the water of the first inches of depth is enough to enter at high-speed the housing and the underpressed air even doens't have to get out so the camera is trash within some moments.

There are so very few sports-housings sold and so many underwater-housings, that people a) have problems to find sports-housings and b) confuse both.

With the keyword "water-proof" you just lead towards the wrong direction as this is not the main aspect for sports-housings because they just AREN'T that water-proof.

What is so bad about me trying to help in this forum, sharing the experience I have with housings and destroyed cameras because of wrong handling with housings? Did YOU ask for action sports?

This is a forum and it's the place to discuss. People come here to get answers and not links. Some people really have problems to find the answers by themselves so I want to help by writing and sometimes writing a lot. Those peolple don't have to read what I write, it's up to them so I prefer giving some infos too much than giving not enough infos and probably causing problems for anybody. Look at the discussion about underwater-housings we had here the other day - some were interested but had no single idea what it needs to care for the housing not to loose your precious camera.

I'm not english-native and don't understand what exactly you are telling me to do, but I didn't write for you, I wrote for Duke and not for you, so why don't you leave me write here and let Duke decide wheter he wants to read this all or not. Correct me if I write something wrong but don't start turning this discussion into this childish direction that you do.

You say that I'm "too anal about waterproof" - well, that's why after years my housings still work and so do my cameras - and that's why so many collegues of mine lost their cameras as they didn't take this point "too anal"...
(also tons of internet-entries about flooded sports-housings and rusted cameras.... Poor GL2...)

IF the GL2 is in closer focus, then I suggest buying a rain-coat (easy to find, light, easy to use and cheap) and just staying out of the water. THERE IS NO WATER-PROOF HOUSING FOR THE GL2 WITH DUKE'S INTERESTS.

And for research:
Do you wanna see people confusing sports-housings with underwater-housings? My home-forum, where I act as 1 of 7 moderators with over 12'000 members has several hundreds entries about housings and they are filled with confusion. But as it's not in english, I present you a random found confusing from dvinfo.net and it's about GL2 and people aren't aware that sometimes the housing costs twice the price of a camera and in the following topic they even talk about the ewa-marine plastic-bags for small consumer cameras.... still talking about the GL2.... And then the discussion starts about Ikelite - probably the worst underwater-housings I know and just too heavy and too expensive for the GL2 if there only was one for that camera... (try to find....).

Link: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/archive/index.php/t-24695.html
 
You first show me that phantom of

WATERPROOF HOUSING for a GL2.... (give me any link or model name)

THERE ISN'T SUCH A THING!! So quit telling people to use one

What if Duke really buys a GL2 and finds out that there is no housing for it? There are raincoats and they work perfectly!
 
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