Best microphone to record elk sounds ???

I think this is where an audio recorder with a pre-record buffer would come in really handy for you.

I really wish I had the time and money to come where you are at and experiment with tons of different set ups until we get it dialed in. Really great nature recordings are worth a lot, and if you can get some good stuff, you might be able to license it out to sound designers.
 
My older cam actually has a pre-record function. I found it to be incredible for this application, but.....

It's amazing how when all you have is the audio by its self it doesn't have 1/4 the pizzaz as when it's in conjunction with the video. Take away the scene and you really see it's flaws. I tried to use the audio from many clips like the one above without the video and it was just not very good thus the search for something a step beyond my current knowledge.

If you ever are traveling through Utah in the second week of Sept, make sure to look me up :)

Cheers,
Pete
 
I have a good friend who is excellent at this kind of stuff. Her setup of choice is a pair of Schoeps in zeppelins and going either to an old Nagra RtR (loves it for some animals, things like horse gallops) or (and this is where it gets weird) H4 or the SD 702. She thinks the 702 is kind of "sterile" and actually likes the sound of the H4 better. The next recorder she is likely to get is one of the digital Nagras. I don't think she owns a shotgun mic. Your situation is a bit different since your not primarily doing sound recording.
Your recordings would probably loose less (with out the visuals) if you recorded in stereo because it would give you more of a sense of the space. But that doesn't sound like a practical possibility. Also because of the camera you are not going to get as close as she generally does so a shotgun is likely to be a better choice.

I'm with Dave I would love to head out for a few weeks and record. Oh right, the mortgage bill just came...;~)
 
How about a matched pair of MK-012's with the new MK-012-8 figure 8 capsule on one of the mics in a M/S setup? Does anyone know if that figure8 capsule works at all?

Another question, is there a place to rent these or something like those that have been suggested to try this all out before buying?

Cheers,
Pete
 
In terms of renting, there are places that rent. I don't about the MK-012's, but you can get Schoeps, Sennheiser, and lots of other high end microphones to rent, along with all the support stuff like a shockmount and wind protection. You can also rent a recorder, mixer, and just about anything else we've discusses.
 
Don't forget that, for outdoor work, RF condenser mics are much safer than normal AF condensers.

Basically, AF capacitor microphones use the capsule as a capacitor to store charge. With one fixed plate and the other free to vibrate in sympathy with the sound, the capacitance varies, and the charge moves in or out of the capsule accordingly. This is measured by the head pre-amplifier and an audio signal results. All well and good, but the capsule is inherently in a high impedance circuit (over 1GigaΩ) – it has to sit there with stored charge until the diaphragm moves and any changes in the charge are perceived as audio. In a humid atmosphere the stored charge finds it easier to escape on water molecules in the air rather than through the input of the pre-amplifier, hence noisy and reduced output, and misery all round. The high biasing voltage also attracts dust particles to the diaphragm, reducing its efficiency and linearity.

The RF system (as used in Sennheiser MKH microphones) uses the capsule (a low impedance capsule) in a completely different way: as a tuning capacitor for an RF oscillator – which inherently employs it in a low impedance circuit where a high frequency signal is being passed through the capacitor all the time. Changes in capacitance (caused by sound moving the diaphragm) alter the resonant frequency of the circuit (circa 8MHz) and so its frequency becomes proportional to the audio signal. A simple RF demodulator restores the output to a conventional audio signal. More complex and sophisticated (but still very rugged), this system is highly immune to the effects of humidity and is thus the preferred design to be used out of doors (or when moving from outside to inside on a cold day!).
 
Great stuff John!

Is Senn the only one making RF condensers? Maybe other than the Rode NTG3? If so, I wonder why more companies don't?

I've really enjoyed my MKH50 and it had spoiled me with how quiet it is.

John Willett said:
Don't forget that, for outdoor work, RF condenser mics are much safer than normal AF condensers.

Basically, AF capacitor microphones use the capsule as a capacitor to store charge. With one fixed plate and the other free to vibrate in sympathy with the sound, the capacitance varies, and the charge moves in or out of the capsule accordingly. This is measured by the head pre-amplifier and an audio signal results. All well and good, but the capsule is inherently in a high impedance circuit (over 1GigaΩ) – it has to sit there with stored charge until the diaphragm moves and any changes in the charge are perceived as audio. In a humid atmosphere the stored charge finds it easier to escape on water molecules in the air rather than through the input of the pre-amplifier, hence noisy and reduced output, and misery all round. The high biasing voltage also attracts dust particles to the diaphragm, reducing its efficiency and linearity.

The RF system (as used in Sennheiser MKH microphones) uses the capsule (a low impedance capsule) in a completely different way: as a tuning capacitor for an RF oscillator – which inherently employs it in a low impedance circuit where a high frequency signal is being passed through the capacitor all the time. Changes in capacitance (caused by sound moving the diaphragm) alter the resonant frequency of the circuit (circa 8MHz) and so its frequency becomes proportional to the audio signal. A simple RF demodulator restores the output to a conventional audio signal. More complex and sophisticated (but still very rugged), this system is highly immune to the effects of humidity and is thus the preferred design to be used out of doors (or when moving from outside to inside on a cold day!).
Click to expand...
 
For nature stuff I think stereo is better for the most part. But if you only have 2 tracks and one is for live narration, you're stuck with mono. But really why does the guy need to narrate on the spot? What if he makes mistakes, but you've got great elk sounds happening? The elk mic will pick up the guy talking won't it? For the scenario you describe I would do a Rode NT4 in a blimp, going into a Sony D-50, and be as far away as possible from the camera guy talking. Or better yet, throw a MixPre in there between the mic and recorder.

But w/ setup you described:
+1 on not trying to mix in stereo. Record hard left/right, but when mixing put them both straight up the center mono. OR save the narration for the studio, and record elk in stereo.
 
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dano said:
Great stuff John!

Is Senn the only one making RF condensers? Maybe other than the Rode NTG3? If so, I wonder why more companies don't?

I've really enjoyed my MKH50 and it had spoiled me with how quiet it is.
Click to expand...

Sennheiser are the only company that have really researched RF condensers.

Sennheiser never made valve (vacuum tube) microphones. They started with dynamic microphones and only came to condensers in the age of transistors. You can't make normal AF condensers with transistors, so Sennheiser researched and developed making condenser microphones with RF technology.

Several other microphone companies also started doing this, and I do know there was a Schoeps RF condenser at one time.

However, a few years after transistors the FET was developed - the FET is basically a solid-state valve. So all the other microphone companies stopped developing RF condensers and went back to their old designs, just replacing the valve with an FET.

As Sennheiser had never made valve mics they continued with their research into RF condensers and never bothered with AF condensers at all (until very recently, for a couple of models).

RF condensers are more expensive to make and need a different mind-set than AF condensers.

Other companies found it too awkward and expensive and did not want to invest in the expensive R&D to produce an RF condenser.

As far as I am aware the only companies to actively do R&D into RF condensers (rather than copying what others have done) are Sennheiser and Schoeps, and Schoeps went back to AF condensers.
 
Thanks very much for taking the time to put that all out there, very informative!

John Willett said:
Sennheiser are the only company that have really researched RF condensers.

Sennheiser never made valve (vacuum tube) microphones. They started with dynamic microphones and only came to condensers in the age of transistors. You can't make normal AF condensers with transistors, so Sennheiser researched and developed making condenser microphones with RF technology.

Several other microphone companies also started doing this, and I do know there was a Schoeps RF condenser at one time.

However, a few years after transistors the FET was developed - the FET is basically a solid-state valve. So all the other microphone companies stopped developing RF condensers and went back to their old designs, just replacing the valve with an FET.

As Sennheiser had never made valve mics they continued with their research into RF condensers and never bothered with AF condensers at all (until very recently, for a couple of models).

RF condensers are more expensive to make and need a different mind-set than AF condensers.

Other companies found it too awkward and expensive and did not want to invest in the expensive R&D to produce an RF condenser.

As far as I am aware the only companies to actively do R&D into RF condensers (rather than copying what others have done) are Sennheiser and Schoeps, and Schoeps went back to AF condensers.
Click to expand...
 
Here's what Ty Ford had to say about the NTG-3 over on JWSound:

NTG-3 - New Shotgun Mic from Rode

Ty Ford

A $699 USD street, the new Australian-made Rode NTG-3 seems extremely well-placed for its price and performance. Like the Sennheiser 416, the NTG-3 is an RF-condenser that combines a somewhat sophisticated RF circuit with the capsule to reduce the deleterious effects of high humidity. Tricky to design, but worth the effort. That design element has contributed greatly to the 416’s “bullet proof” reputation and should do the same for the NTG-3.

FEATURES
The RF environment is growing significantly more hostile, though, and Rode seems to have taken shielding a bit farther than Sennheiser did back in 1974 when the MKH 416 came to market. Attention to the mechanical and electronic lay out of the NTG-3 including the surface mount technology (SMT), PCB layout, component selection and dual chamber design of the internal brass tube that appears to separate most of the circuitry from the tunable RF section and capsule, all contribute to RF resistance and mic performance.

The upper chamber and part of the lower chamber of the internal metal tube in which the circuitry and capsule sit is completely covered by a thin grounded metal mesh. Just behind the capsule a rubber o-ring in a small groove and one closer to the tip snug the internal metal tube inside the slotted outer tube. The internal tube runs the full length of the outer tube for increased shielding. A small foam plug a little over a half inch thick sits within the top of the internal tube to reduce popping. The extended upper section of the internal tube, above the capsule, has two rows of precision holes drilled on opposing sides covered with a thin fabric to mechanically filter the sound once it has already been filtered by the slots on the outer tube.

Rode also adds some further insurance by integrating their longer pin 1 ground pin into a very well designed grounding scheme. The XLR connector is not stock. The base is machined from solid brass. The ground pin is permanently mounted into that case. Pins two and three are isolated via Teflon bushings. All pins are gold-plated.

The Rode NTG-3 employs a line gradient supercardioid capsule. Output impedance is 25 Ohms. Sensitivity is listed at -30 dB re 1 Volt/Pascal (31.6 mV @ 94 dB SPL) +/- 2 dB @ 1kHz, EIN noise is 13 dB-A and it can withstand 130 dB SPL. The 416 and NTG-3 share the same 13 dB-A selfnoise and sensitivity. At about a quarter inch longer and about the same weight as a 416, the NTG-3 weighs less than six ounces. Its matte champagne finish is not reflective.

It’s not unusual to have to roll the low end off on a 416 these days unless you’re in the middle of nowhere or in a studio. Sanken rolled off the bottom a bit with their CS-3e and Rode follows suit with the new NTG-3, so there’s not quite as much in the upper bass or lower midrange on the NTG-3. That makes the NTG-3 sound slightly crisper and brighter. More so when used very close. As you back it off, though, normal air diffusion makes any high-frequency differences between the two mics pretty unnoticeable. However, the fact that my 416 is over fifteen years old may suggest that it may not be as bright as it once was. Regardless, with a zep and a furry, of course, you’ll lose a bit of top end.

IN USE
The NTG-3 pattern is a little wider than the 416, with more gently sloping shoulders. This translates into a more forgiving pattern for two-shots, but you’ll also hear a bit more ambience. My 416 has a little spot about ninety degrees off axis where there’s a slight return of high frequencies. The NTG-3 does not. Both mics sound about the same from the rear. The NTG-3 sounded fine on my K-Tek carbon fiber boom with a Rycote Softie suspension mount. The NTG-3 had less low frequency boom handling noise, mostly because the 416 noise had more LF content due to its response.

After not picking up any interference with my Verizon cell phone sitting next to the NTG-3, I made a point of taking the NTG-3 to the mall with my location recorder and headphones to visit T-Mobile, the Apple store and AT&T. There was no interference, even with phones operating right next to the NTG-3. I was using Whirlwind Accusonic +2 cable and connectors. The shield was not tied to the XLR shells.

SUMMARY
The Rode NTG-3 appears to be a very solid piece of gear. The efforts to eliminate RF are noted and appreciated. I like the unique and very handy padded metal storage tube. The foam windbreaker and simple mic clip all add value to the package. I think you’ll be seeing NTG-3s show up in more kits soon. At the moment, I can’t see why not. Nice job Rode.

Technique, Inc. © copyright 2008

Ty Ford is on permanent loan from Radio World and Pro Audio Review. He may be reached at www.tyford.com.

FAST FACTS
Application: Film, ENG/EFP audio.

Key features: Designed to withstand today’s harsh RF environments.

Price: $699 USD Street.

Contact:
Rode
www.rodemic.com
 
John Willett said:
It has the same directivity as the MKH 416, but with a better off-axis response (as well as being quieter and better as it's about 35 years newer).

I think I would clip a fig-8 on the top and turn it into MS stereo - you could use an MKH 30, a Neumann KK120+KM-A or the new miniature Ambient ATE 208 Emesser which is very small and light.
Click to expand...

Hi John,
As always, an informative response from your side. You have given an interesting link to the Ambient product. Will it work well with a MKH 416? Can you please guide me to a good link to understand how the figure 8 works and its post processing.

Cheers,
Sabyasachi
 
indiawilds said:
Hi John,
As always, an informative response from your side. You have given an interesting link to the Ambient product. Will it work well with a MKH 416? Can you please guide me to a good link to understand how the figure 8 works and its post processing.

Cheers,
Sabyasachi
Click to expand...

MS with a gun mic. is always going to be a bit "iffy" due to the comb-filter effect off-axis due to the interference tube.

But, I would say, it should work as well as it would with any other gun mic.

My own fig-8 is the MKH 30, but this is almost x4 the price of the Emesser.

The Ambient Emesser actually looks a nice little fig-8 that will not add much weigh to the rig. And as i's an OEM capsule made for Ambient by MBHO it should be superb (MBHO also make capsules in Germant for Soundfield, Brauner and several other top notch mic. manufacturers). The Emesser is a single diaphragm fig-8 and there are only a very few on the market (Sennheeiser MKH 30, Neumann AK/KK 120, Schoeps MK 30 are the others).

The only thing I would do is not to use the piggy-back clip supplied by Ambient, but to use the dual clip from Rycote.

I hope this helps.
 
Ok, so I found an Oktava mk-012 for $80 in the classifieds today and thought I'd give the original concept a try :)

http://youtu.be/eWaHnvgu6Qk?hd=1

It's not proper positional M/S but it kind of works as a stereo pair. Here's the details of what I did:

- DPA 4061 lav mic facing directly upward at my chin about 8" below my mouth.
- Oktava mk-012 mic (cardiod capsule) on a boom pole about 6' out in front of me and held in my left hand.
- Zoom H4n recording stereo M/S with the DPA as the mid and the Oktava as the side. (Audio levels need to be locked to do M/S on the H4n it seems :( )
- T3i, EF 17-35mm L at 17mm on a prototype stabilizer.

I need to film and record from one persons perspective like it's a normal conversation, the normal banter between friends. The elk sounds is just a side hobby project I was hoping to get to work with the same setup and thus the original question here. The key to this whole thing is to see if I can't pull off the whole scene solo. Mount the boom pole to a pack I'm wearing and use it as a reference for holding focus distance while we walk and do the shot.

This is just a first test and seems somewhat promising to me. It's glarring error is the whole and complete mismatch of sound from the two mics.

Any suggestions on how to blend those more closely without simply buying more kit? How can I improve the concept here if it's even possible?

Recording the elk sounds should be pretty simple once I get this part sorted. Just need to buy one of those ATE Emesser's that John suggested and swap it out for the lav mic on my rig. Might even be able to swap out the xlr plugs between scenes and get the elk thing to work as well without having to re-rig each time!

Cheers,
Pete
 
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