Best Method for Mixing/Sound Editing

I have both Pro Tools (LE system) and Nuendo and Digital Performer. Kind of a nice problem to have I suppose, but the answer to your question about what you need to accomplish some form of mixing can best be summed up by the following:

1. What is the final destination? DVD, TV, web?
2. Stereo, Mono, surround? 5.1? DTS, Dolby?
3. How many tracks? 10, 50, 150, etc.?
4. Simple content (music/Dialogue) or complex (motion picture)?
5. What is your experience with sound editing/mixing?
6. Will this be edited on your system and then mixed at another facility?

Okay, after you answer some of these questions now you can look at what system will be capable of getting the job done and at a good price point.

1. Pro Tools LE - MBox or Digi002 offer great compact system with up to 32 tracks, 24bit, 96K audio (Digi002). Pro Tools interface is solid. You will need the DV Toolkit to do post functions(OMF, timecode). MBox is less than $500 and includes software.

2. Nuendo - Allows you to choose a variety of audio interfaces to work with, is far less limiting than Pro Tools LE system, and allows for surround mixing which PT LE does not. But let's not forget that the price tag has jumped up to $2000 now and that's without the interface, speakers, etc. So allow a budget of at least $3000.

3. Digital Performer - Musicians tend to like it, and for post they have done some cool and useful things, but overall I'd prefer the first two options here.

And you can't cound out Soundtrack Pro, especially if you are an editor trying to make the transition into doing sound. Personally I have not used it yet, but have read all about it, and Walter Murch is really into it, so I don't think you can ignore it, but time will tell whether it becomes a major player in the sound world.

Hope this helps. Remember, the best approach is to identify what you need, and then go out and find something that does the job, is comfortable to use, and doesn't make you go broke. As far as I'm concerned, there will always be debate about what product is better, but when you start out with a list of needs, the comparison shopping usually becomes easier.

Good luck!
Steve
 
Typically what happens on stuff with any sort of budget is that sound gets edited by a sound editor, or a team of sound editors (depending on budget and time). If you are doing the sound edit by yourself, then you will be responsible for everything, maybe including pre-dubs. If you are on a typical hollywood type feature, you have a person on Dialogue, a person on BG's, a person on Foley, a person on Effects, and then you have your main Sound Designer. Each one of those will be individually pre mixed (or pre-dubbed), and then those pre dub sessions will go to the final mixing stage to get the final mix done. Sometimes it's the same guy that does the pre-dubs and final mix, sometimes it's a sperate re-recording mixer.

Sound editing is less about making changes as it is adding creativly to the story. For example, I am working a horror right now that requires a lot of creative sound editing and design.

Now, if I'm doing something that has very little to no budget, then I end up having to mix on my system, which I'm usually not too thrilled about. My apartment is no mix stage.

-Dave





MattC said:
Thanks, Dave.

One other point. I don't really believe in starting a mix and then giving that to a post house to "finish". In all likelihood you will not be saving time or money, you will be increasing it. I might make a stereo mix and send it to Dave so that he has an idea of what I'm shooting for (or have him come to my home studio for the same purpose) but at the end of the day, if I'm hiring a post house, I want them to do their job. They, like any of us, know how to get the most out of the tools at their disposal, and if it's a pro house they're going to have some very good tools. Sound editing is all about making very small changes to many, many layers that ultimately results in a good mix (Dave, if I'm speaking out of my but here, please step up and say so). So, for best results your sound designer needs to have control of the audio at all levels. If he or she is just "picking up where you left off" the result probably wont be very good and they will probably have to undo most of what you did anyway.

So from that standpoint, compatibility has never been a major concern of mine, I'm either doing it myself, or I'll hire a pro to do it right from the beginning. But again, I would still make a mix to let them know what I was aiming for.

Matt
Click to expand...
 
A challenging area to conquer indeed! It's taken me two months to learn everything I could about picture (all the DVX settings, picture composition and editing in Avid Xpress). I was about to tackle "effects" in After Effects. But it sounds like I better tackle sound first. I wonder, what do you guys think of doing as much mix as I can in Avid Xpress before seeing what my buddies can do with the myriad other programs? It seems some recommend leaving well enough alone, since most of my audio work might just be undone anyway. While others seem to suggest doing as much as possible in Xpress first.

This is all excellent advice! Thank you!

(Note: this is all for a short film which currently has a typically unknown future: probably some festivals, maybe a broadcaster. Dialogue, music, foley, background. I can't imagine there being 15 audio tracks in the end though. Maybe five or six? Additional mixing will be by a newbie sound designer on Soundtrack Pro. So I'll be exporting something or other from Xpress so he can work on it. No experience with sound design here. Just basically brilliant and eager to learn.)
 
You'll be amazed at how quickly the track count can rise on even a short film. Once you start adding in sound effects and backgrounds, many of which will be stereo, you'll easily surpass 10 tracks, and the count could get up into the 20+ range. A good rule of thumb for exporting tracks to a DAW is to organize your tracks. For example:

1-6 Dialogue + Sync Effects
7-10 Backgrounds/ambience
11-16 Sound FX
17-20 Music
Etc, Etc.

This helps keep everything easily recognized by the sound editor/mixer. If you just cram everything into a few tracks, it will be frustrating for them.

As for mixing within your editing program, technically it can be done. Final Cut Pro works in 32bit floating point now, so quailty is improving in these editors, but the limitations tend to occur with plugins and some features that are unique to DAWs such as aux routing, etc. If you need to do a temp mix to get the interest of investors, I think you can certainly get something acceptable in your editor and some people have done audio right in the editor for broadcast as well, so....

But you will find that your best option without a doubt is to organize your tracks, and then bring that to a professional audio post house that will use their experience and high quality gear to get the most out of your soundtrack.

Steve
 
Sean,

I have to re-iterate what steve just said: never underestimate your track count.

Last year I sound designed a 24 minute film that ended up going to cannes: final track count?

78.

Thats a lot of tracks... and I stand by my last post: get each pre-dub (or stem or pre-mix : different terms, same concept) so sound COMPLETELY FULL on its own. Even backgrounds should contribute to the sound design - you should be able to watch with only backgrounds and feel SOMETHING of the emotion of the story. When each stem works this way, the combined product will definately work, even if you end up having to kill a few sounds because they clash.

Good luck...
 
I did a 20 min one with over 100 tracks - but that was a psychological thriller in a POV shot movie (5.1 surround)
 
And when you are on a budget and can't take this to an audio post house, what you can do with say something like Pro Tools LE is mix your backgrounds, dialogue, music, etc. separate (which will help you deal with the 32 track limit) and then you can bring those stems into a final mix session. If you need to make adjustments you just go back into your stem mixes and make those changes. Also, you can bring your stems into other stems as reference, so if you are mixing dialogue and you want to see how the backgrounds sound with it, you just bring the background stem in. Does this make sense?

Steve
 
Steve, yes thats a great idea, I often do that.

generally I start with the ambience/background stem, and when it fills the film to a certain degree (often quite easy to do quickly with ambi), you can use it as reference for other stems:

Dialogue & Ambi
FX & Ambi
Music & Dialogue is quite useful too.

That is indeed a good way to get around track limitations. When you mix down stems, remember it doesnt HAVE to be just one stereo track. You can afford to mix as many as needed - say, down to 6 for effects. This leaves you with a bit of flexibility in the final mix, so you can change a foreground effect (instead of the hundred elements its made up of), and leave a background effect that happens to also be running, alone.

I think thats a great way to work.
 
Wow. You dudes know what you're talkin' about. I clearly need to collaborate with a guy who specializes in sound, because it will take me a year to figure all this out. The guy who's going to be trying a sound mix wants to take my Avid files (in uncompressed AVI) and mix them in Soundtrack Pro. I don't even know if AVI files keep the tracks separate or not. A whole lot to learn. I'l probably start by getting pro tools (because I'm Avid Xpress and PC) and then begin my long slow journey to becoming a master at all this. Until then, hopefully this other dude can figure stuff out. Or I'll be hiring somebody to do it. (Oh, and this will NOT be 5.1 surround...I think I have enough on my plate just making it sound good over tinny TV speakers. ;-) )
 
I just finished a one minute spec commercial and I maxed out the track count in LE. Lots of design though. Each project will lend itself to different layers of stuff. the feature I did last spring didn't come close to maxing out my track counts.

-Dave
 
Even if you are editing in FCP 32bit floating, it is better to just stick to one mix. The more you sweeten and then drop back to 16bit the more "damage" you do to the original audio (dithering helps). This catches up with you quicker then you think. Just give your audio post house a clean version of the original files.

Best
 
Yes, often a confusing subject for people, because the assumption is that if it's all digital there is no loss as long as it stays digital. But this is a topic that can give even the most seasoned pros a run for their money, so we'll keep it simple for this discussion. Using a workflow that minimizes conversions, processing, etc. will provide you the highest quality in the end.

Steve
 
theres no need to lose quality - just only perform your FINAL mix downs after all the tweaking etc.

Of just work in Nuendo which will let you pull the entire unmixed stems together at final mix.
 
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